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LAMP starting point [message #183267] Fri, 18 October 2013 10:00 Go to next message
Rudra Banerjee is currently offline  Rudra Banerjee
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Hi,
I am an enthusiast with zero background knowledge in database and php.
I have got some space in a server to setup a database (its not a paid project).
I will use LAMP to setup the database (i.e. database of book's catalogue. like a library) that can be freely used and updated by anonymous users.

Given this goal, kindly suggest me some starting point. google is full of resources, but most often then not, confusing and self contradicting for a beginner.

Any help is welcome.
Re: LAMP starting point [message #183268 is a reply to message #183267] Fri, 18 October 2013 10:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 18/10/13 15:00, Rudra Banerjee wrote:
> Hi, I am an enthusiast with zero background knowledge in database
> and php. I have got some space in a server to setup a database (its
> not a paid project). I will use LAMP to setup the database (i.e.
> database of book's catalogue. like a library) that can be freely used
> and updated by anonymous users.
>
> Given this goal, kindly suggest me some starting point. google is
> full of resources, but most often then not, confusing and self
> contradicting for a beginner.
>

Indeed. Probably the question you have asked is too general because you
dont say what experience you have got.

Neither do you say specifically what you want to achive.

So the first bit of advice is to sit down and compose a post saying
exactly what platform you have, and what you want to acheive with it.

And then start beraking it down into specific things, like the database
design itself, which is best done as a document of words first.

And probably best built initially with phpymyadmin, and played with
using the mysql command line tool.

Then thereis the issues of getting apacert running as you want it, and
PHP integrated woith oit.

Then you can start thinking about HTML and PHP to create ways to access
the data.

Focussing on these specific tasks will bring up the detailed issues you
need to solve for which this and related newsgrpups are best able to
supply answers


> Any help is welcome.
>


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: LAMP starting point [message #183269 is a reply to message #183267] Fri, 18 October 2013 12:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Denis McMahon is currently offline  Denis McMahon
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On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 07:00:00 -0700, Rudra Banerjee wrote:

> I am an enthusiast with zero background knowledge in database and php.
> I have got some space in a server to setup a database (its not a paid
> project).

> I will use LAMP to setup the database (i.e. database of book's
> catalogue. like a library) that can be freely used and updated by
> anonymous users.

> Given this goal, kindly suggest me some starting point. google is full
> of resources, but most often then not, confusing and self contradicting
> for a beginner.

Define your data structures. Define your user interfaces. PHP is the glue
that sits between the two. Designing data structures is an art form unto
itself, you could look on the Stanford class to go website and see when
their next database course is running.

Free online php tutorials tend to be crap unfortunately, the best
reference for php is the on-line manual.

Do you have any experience in php, sql or html?

Without at least a working knowledge of all 3, you're going to have
problems, especially as most of the php you'll be writing will be
shifting data between html forms and an sql database, or between the sql
database and html documents.

Having said that, if you're competent in another programming language,
and understand basic programming constructs like loops, decision making
etc, php isn't that hard to pick up the basics of. Making a secure php /
mysql (or mariadb) application is however a different kettle of fish.

Questions:

Will you be using mysql or mariadb? Why?
Will you be using html 4.01, xhtml 1.1, or 'html 5'? Why?

If you can't answer the why, you don't know enough to make the decision
yet!

Will you be using Javascript and / or CSS? If yes, do you have any prior
experience of these? Because if you don't, forget about using them until
you have the basic website working.

Oh, and this newsgroup is only relevant for the php parts of the
discussion. If your php is functioning correctly, but you have told it to
produce the wrong html or the wrong sql, there's a limit to our ability
to spot that here.

One final thing, as a lot of this sort of application involves using php
to generate sql or html strings, you really really really really really
need to have a very good understanding of string handling across all 3
languages, especially the use of various quote characters, and how to
generate a quoted string in one language from within another language.

Jerry, what did I miss?

--
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon(at)gmail(dot)com
Re: LAMP starting point [message #183270 is a reply to message #183269] Fri, 18 October 2013 13:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter H. Coffin is currently offline  Peter H. Coffin
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On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 16:20:06 +0000 (UTC), Denis McMahon wrote:
> One final thing, as a lot of this sort of application involves using php
> to generate sql or html strings, you really really really really really
> need to have a very good understanding of string handling across all 3
> languages, especially the use of various quote characters, and how to
> generate a quoted string in one language from within another language.
>
> Jerry, what did I miss?

onlamp.com is an excellent resource for general purpose "how to do
things" in the environment. The worst thing that can be legitimately be
laid on it is that some of the articles are a little dated, but that's
largely because the thing's BEEN AROUND so long.

--
I think it's a beautiful day to go to the zoo and feed the ducks.
To the lions.
-- Brian Kantor
Re: LAMP starting point [message #183271 is a reply to message #183269] Fri, 18 October 2013 14:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 10/18/2013 12:20 PM, Denis McMahon wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 07:00:00 -0700, Rudra Banerjee wrote:
>
>> I am an enthusiast with zero background knowledge in database and php.
>> I have got some space in a server to setup a database (its not a paid
>> project).
>
>> I will use LAMP to setup the database (i.e. database of book's
>> catalogue. like a library) that can be freely used and updated by
>> anonymous users.
>
>> Given this goal, kindly suggest me some starting point. google is full
>> of resources, but most often then not, confusing and self contradicting
>> for a beginner.
>
> Define your data structures. Define your user interfaces. PHP is the glue
> that sits between the two. Designing data structures is an art form unto
> itself, you could look on the Stanford class to go website and see when
> their next database course is running.
>
> Free online php tutorials tend to be crap unfortunately, the best
> reference for php is the on-line manual.
>
> Do you have any experience in php, sql or html?
>
> Without at least a working knowledge of all 3, you're going to have
> problems, especially as most of the php you'll be writing will be
> shifting data between html forms and an sql database, or between the sql
> database and html documents.
>
> Having said that, if you're competent in another programming language,
> and understand basic programming constructs like loops, decision making
> etc, php isn't that hard to pick up the basics of. Making a secure php /
> mysql (or mariadb) application is however a different kettle of fish.
>
> Questions:
>
> Will you be using mysql or mariadb? Why?
> Will you be using html 4.01, xhtml 1.1, or 'html 5'? Why?
>
> If you can't answer the why, you don't know enough to make the decision
> yet!
>
> Will you be using Javascript and / or CSS? If yes, do you have any prior
> experience of these? Because if you don't, forget about using them until
> you have the basic website working.
>
> Oh, and this newsgroup is only relevant for the php parts of the
> discussion. If your php is functioning correctly, but you have told it to
> produce the wrong html or the wrong sql, there's a limit to our ability
> to spot that here.
>
> One final thing, as a lot of this sort of application involves using php
> to generate sql or html strings, you really really really really really
> need to have a very good understanding of string handling across all 3
> languages, especially the use of various quote characters, and how to
> generate a quoted string in one language from within another language.
>
> Jerry, what did I miss?
>

I think you covered it quite well, Denis.

What he wants to do is not hard for an experienced programmer, but is a
huge leap for someone new to PHP/MySQL/HTML.

The string handling is especially important for database security reasons.

Jerry


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
Re: LAMP starting point [message #183272 is a reply to message #183267] Fri, 18 October 2013 14:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
J.O. Aho is currently offline  J.O. Aho
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On 18/10/13 16:00, Rudra Banerjee wrote:

> I am an enthusiast with zero background knowledge in database and php.
> I have got some space in a server to setup a database (its not a paid project).
> I will use LAMP to setup the database (i.e. database of book's catalogue. like a library) that can be freely used and updated by anonymous users.

Something no one here pointed out which I think it's important, use the
apache/mysql/php provided by your distribution, do not try to download
some packages which will include those, you may end up with a package
with a number of security issues and no information when you should update.
Using the distributions packages will give you security updates and
usually stability where version bumps are moderate.

Don't expect someone will hand out you a full solution, people here will
help you and point out the proper way to do things, but as we do not get
paied we will not give a finished solution.

IMHO a good point to start at is php.net, you will get good information
about how to use functions and many good comments too. As Jerry says,
string handling is really important, you want to prevent any kind of
injection (sql, mail header, ldap and so on). White listing input data
is the right way to go.

--

//Aho
Re: LAMP starting point [message #183274 is a reply to message #183268] Fri, 18 October 2013 14:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tobiah is currently offline  Tobiah
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On 10/18/2013 07:22 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 18/10/13 15:00, Rudra Banerjee wrote:
>> Hi, I am an enthusiast with zero background knowledge in database
>> and php. I have got some space in a server to setup a database (its
>> not a paid project). I will use LAMP to setup the database (i.e.
>> database of book's catalogue. like a library) that can be freely used
>> and updated by anonymous users.
>>
>> Given this goal, kindly suggest me some starting point. google is
>> full of resources, but most often then not, confusing and self
>> contradicting for a beginner.
>>
>
> Indeed. Probably the question you have asked is too general because you dont say what experience you have got.

"zero background knowledge in database and php"

Also asks for resources for a beginner. "Hello World" is probably the first step here.

> Neither do you say specifically what you want to achive.

"I will use LAMP to setup the database (i.e.
database of book's catalogue. like a library) that can be freely used
and updated by anonymous users."


> So the first bit of advice is to sit down and compose a post saying exactly what platform you have, and what you want to acheive
> with it.

LAMP implies Linux, and the goal although broad is clear.

I don't think OP did so badly, asking specifically for
a reference to a recommended beginner's starting point.

Tobiah
Re: LAMP starting point [message #183275 is a reply to message #183274] Fri, 18 October 2013 15:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 18/10/13 19:37, Tobiah wrote:
> On 10/18/2013 07:22 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 18/10/13 15:00, Rudra Banerjee wrote:
>>> Hi, I am an enthusiast with zero background knowledge in database
>>> and php. I have got some space in a server to setup a database (its
>>> not a paid project). I will use LAMP to setup the database (i.e.
>>> database of book's catalogue. like a library) that can be freely used
>>> and updated by anonymous users.
>>>
>>> Given this goal, kindly suggest me some starting point. google is
>>> full of resources, but most often then not, confusing and self
>>> contradicting for a beginner.
>>>
>>
>> Indeed. Probably the question you have asked is too general because
>> you dont say what experience you have got.
>
> "zero background knowledge in database and php"

Experience in computer admin? programming in any language? HTML?

>
> Also asks for resources for a beginner. "Hello World" is probably the
> first step here.
>
>> Neither do you say specifically what you want to achive.
>
> "I will use LAMP to setup the database (i.e.
> database of book's catalogue. like a library) that can be freely used
> and updated by anonymous users."
>
that is about as specific as saying 'I want a car to drive on roads'

>
>> So the first bit of advice is to sit down and compose a post saying
>> exactly what platform you have, and what you want to acheive
>> with it.
>
> LAMP implies Linux, and the goal although broad is clear.
>
Linux is a long way from being exactly one platform.

> I don't think OP did so badly, asking specifically for
> a reference to a recommended beginner's starting point.
>
I never said he did. I said the more detail the better he could be advised.

> Tobiah
>


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: LAMP starting point [message #183276 is a reply to message #183269] Fri, 18 October 2013 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bill is currently offline  bill
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On 2013-10-18 12:20 PM, Denis McMahon wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 07:00:00 -0700, Rudra Banerjee wrote:
>
>> I am an enthusiast with zero background knowledge in database and php.
>> I have got some space in a server to setup a database (its not a paid
>> project).
>
>> I will use LAMP to setup the database (i.e. database of book's
>> catalogue. like a library) that can be freely used and updated by
>> anonymous users.
>
>> Given this goal, kindly suggest me some starting point. google is full
>> of resources, but most often then not, confusing and self contradicting
>> for a beginner.

The two best resources are php.net, where you'll find the "Manual" that
was mentioned, and also
W3Schools.com which is even better for those new to the languages.
They have tutorials galore and examples and even a "try it" option to
test out code you've written or a code snippet they suggested in the
examples. There are several decent sites around but I'll leave it at
those two.

....

> Free online php tutorials tend to be crap unfortunately, the best
> reference for php is the on-line manual.

See above for where that manual actually is.
>
> Do you have any experience in php, sql or html?
>
> Without at least a working knowledge of all 3, you're going to have
> problems, especially as most of the php you'll be writing will be
> shifting data between html forms and an sql database, or between the sql
> database and html documents.

That's a truism and a half. Either of the above "safe" links are chock
full of information for all of those languages and more. Do yourself a
favor and at least check them out.

>
> Having said that, if you're competent in another programming language,
> and understand basic programming constructs like loops, decision making
> etc, php isn't that hard to pick up the basics of. Making a secure php /
> mysql (or mariadb) application is however a different kettle of fish.

MySQL or its descendant with the "i" addition, which is offered now on
many servers, has a learning curve but it's not insurmountable. Or
perhaps you have your own ideas for a database: Just be absolutely
certain you secure them as well as possible so they don't draw
miscreants and worse.
>

....

>
> Will you be using Javascript and / or CSS? If yes, do you have any prior
> experience of these? Because if you don't, forget about using them until
> you have the basic website working.

Javascript (Not Java), is nowhere near even secure so be sure you
provide the usual protection for them. I assume you are familiar with
things like Cross Site Scripting and Code Injection? Be sure to learn
about them if you don't already have a familiarity with them. Learning
about those will lead you to a lot of other possible exposures for
websites.

>
> Oh, and this newsgroup is only relevant for the php parts of the
> discussion. If your php is functioning correctly, but you have told it to
> produce the wrong html or the wrong sql, there's a limit to our ability
> to spot that here.
>
> One final thing, as a lot of this sort of application involves using php
> to generate sql or html strings, you really really really really really
> need to have a very good understanding of string handling across all 3
> languages, especially the use of various quote characters, and how to
> generate a quoted string in one language from within another language.

I'm not sure what the above para means (not a lot to do with CSS 2 or
3), but the gist of it's definitely worth noting. Strings are all
important and they will mostly be manipulated in PHP, out of sight of
the normal browser and much more securely. HTML is mostly good for input
and messages, but PHP does the most work to protect you and your site
from the "bad boys" of the internet.

Twayne`
Re: LAMP starting point [message #183278 is a reply to message #183267] Sat, 19 October 2013 07:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bill is currently offline  bill
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On 10/18/2013 10:00 AM, Rudra Banerjee wrote:
> Hi,
> I am an enthusiast with zero background knowledge in database and php.
> I have got some space in a server to setup a database (its not a paid project).
> I will use LAMP to setup the database (i.e. database of book's catalogue. like a library) that can be freely used and updated by anonymous users.
>
> Given this goal, kindly suggest me some starting point. google is full of resources, but most often then not, confusing and self contradicting for a beginner.
>
> Any help is welcome.
>
Once you have a LAMP working environment (which the server
probably already has) I recommend:
"PHP5, fast and easy web development" by julie Meloni
< http://www.amazon.com/PHP-Fast-Easy-Web-Development/dp/1592004733/ref=sr_ob _8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1382182045&sr=1-8>
It covers just about everything you need to do, with multiple
examples. (to stop the flames: it certainly not perfect, but is
"good enough" to get you started in a low pressure way.)

bill
Re: LAMP starting point [message #183280 is a reply to message #183275] Sat, 19 October 2013 11:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter H. Coffin is currently offline  Peter H. Coffin
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On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 20:03:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 18/10/13 19:37, Tobiah wrote:
>
>> LAMP implies Linux, and the goal although broad is clear.
>
> Linux is a long way from being exactly one platform.

Real conversation I had last year.

Newbie: "I want to set up a LAMP server and learn to do stuff on it."
Me: "Which operating system? For most, everything for that comes with
and just needs to be installed."
N: "Windows 7."

--
I picked up a Magic 8-Ball the other day and it said 'Outlook not so
good.' I said 'Sure, but Microsoft still ships it.'
-- Anonymous
Re: LAMP starting point [message #183283 is a reply to message #183280] Sat, 19 October 2013 13:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 19/10/13 16:24, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 20:03:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 18/10/13 19:37, Tobiah wrote:
>>
>>> LAMP implies Linux, and the goal although broad is clear.
>>
>> Linux is a long way from being exactly one platform.
>
> Real conversation I had last year.
>
> Newbie: "I want to set up a LAMP server and learn to do stuff on it."
> Me: "Which operating system? For most, everything for that comes with
> and just needs to be installed."
> N: "Windows 7."
>
otherwise known as WAMP.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: LAMP starting point [message #183284 is a reply to message #183283] Sat, 19 October 2013 17:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Richard Yates is currently offline  Richard Yates
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On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 18:45:34 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp(at)invalid(dot)invalid> wrote:

> On 19/10/13 16:24, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 20:03:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> On 18/10/13 19:37, Tobiah wrote:
>>>
>>>> LAMP implies Linux, and the goal although broad is clear.
>>>
>>> Linux is a long way from being exactly one platform.
>>
>> Real conversation I had last year.
>>
>> Newbie: "I want to set up a LAMP server and learn to do stuff on it."
>> Me: "Which operating system? For most, everything for that comes with
>> and just needs to be installed."
>> N: "Windows 7."
>>
> otherwise known as WAMP.

...FWIW, I've been very happy with WAMP.
Re: LAMP starting point [message #183287 is a reply to message #183284] Sat, 19 October 2013 18:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 19/10/13 22:44, Richard Yates wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 18:45:34 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
> <tnp(at)invalid(dot)invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 19/10/13 16:24, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 20:03:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 18/10/13 19:37, Tobiah wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > LAMP implies Linux, and the goal although broad is clear.
>>>>
>>>> Linux is a long way from being exactly one platform.
>>>
>>> Real conversation I had last year.
>>>
>>> Newbie: "I want to set up a LAMP server and learn to do stuff on it."
>>> Me: "Which operating system? For most, everything for that comes with
>>> and just needs to be installed."
>>> N: "Windows 7."
>>>
>> otherwise known as WAMP.
>
> ...FWIW, I've been very happy with WAMP.
>
WAMP is LAMP implented with a LISP


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: LAMP starting point [message #183291 is a reply to message #183280] Sat, 19 October 2013 20:19 Go to previous message
Thomas 'PointedEars'  is currently offline  Thomas 'PointedEars'
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Peter H. Coffin wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 20:03:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 18/10/13 19:37, Tobiah wrote:
>>> LAMP implies Linux, and the goal although broad is clear.
>> Linux is a long way from being exactly one platform.
>
> Real conversation I had last year.
>
> Newbie: "I want to set up a LAMP server and learn to do stuff on it."
> Me: "Which operating system? For most, everything for that comes with
> and just needs to be installed."
> N: "Windows 7."

Well, there is Cygwin… ;-)


PointedEars
--
Use any version of Microsoft Frontpage to create your site.
(This won't prevent people from viewing your source, but no one
will want to steal it.)
-- from <http://www.vortex-webdesign.com/help/hidesource.htm> (404-comp.)
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