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Is Symfony 2 on-topic in this newsgroup? [message #179294] Tue, 02 October 2012 11:40 Go to next message
Daniel Pitts is currently offline  Daniel Pitts
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Hello everyone,
I know some "programming language" newsgroups have different opinions on
whether frameworks are on topic. I'm learning Symfony2, and re-learning
PHP (after 5 years hiatus). If it is on-topic here, I may be asking
questions from time-to-time. If it isn't, then I'll find some other
venue for the symfony specific questions ;-)

Thanks,
Daniel.

P.S. Hopefully this isn't too contentious of a topic. My hope is that
there is a general consensus that "yes", it is on topic.
Re: Is Symfony 2 on-topic in this newsgroup? [message #179295 is a reply to message #179294] Tue, 02 October 2012 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
M. Strobel is currently offline  M. Strobel
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Am 02.10.2012 17:40, schrieb Daniel Pitts:
> Hello everyone,
> I know some "programming language" newsgroups have different opinions on whether
> frameworks are on topic. I'm learning Symfony2, and re-learning PHP (after 5 years
> hiatus). If it is on-topic here, I may be asking questions from time-to-time. If it
> isn't, then I'll find some other venue for the symfony specific questions ;-)

The general policy is "PHP only". I have never seen a discussion on symfony subjects
here.

I would even expect people here telling you "work up to a decent knowledge in PHP first".

/Str.
Re: Is Symfony 2 on-topic in this newsgroup? [message #179296 is a reply to message #179295] Tue, 02 October 2012 12:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Daniel Pitts is currently offline  Daniel Pitts
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On 10/2/12 9:08 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
> Am 02.10.2012 17:40, schrieb Daniel Pitts:
>> Hello everyone,
>> I know some "programming language" newsgroups have different opinions on whether
>> frameworks are on topic. I'm learning Symfony2, and re-learning PHP (after 5 years
>> hiatus). If it is on-topic here, I may be asking questions from time-to-time. If it
>> isn't, then I'll find some other venue for the symfony specific questions ;-)
>
> The general policy is "PHP only". I have never seen a discussion on symfony subjects
> here.
Okay, that's good to know. I'm sure I'll have some PHP questions at
some point.

> I would even expect people here telling you "work up to a decent knowledge in PHP first".
Unfortunately that isn't exactly an option. I've been working at a Java
shop for 7 years, and suddenly we've been told we're going to become PHP
only. And that we're going to be using Symfony. If I can't ramp up fast
on both, I may not be able to keep my job :-/

Although, on that topic, what is a good tutorial to get a basic overview
familiarity with PHP language features and libraries?

Luckily, I'm a good enough programmer with several languages under my
belt. Moving to a somewhat foreign language shouldn't be *too*
difficult. A good IDE and Google will help for most of my immediate
problems.
Re: Is Symfony 2 on-topic in this newsgroup? [message #179297 is a reply to message #179296] Tue, 02 October 2012 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
J.O. Aho is currently offline  J.O. Aho
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On 02/10/12 18:50, Daniel Pitts wrote:
> On 10/2/12 9:08 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>> Am 02.10.2012 17:40, schrieb Daniel Pitts:
>>> Hello everyone,
>>> I know some "programming language" newsgroups have different opinions
>>> on whether
>>> frameworks are on topic. I'm learning Symfony2, and re-learning PHP
>>> (after 5 years
>>> hiatus). If it is on-topic here, I may be asking questions from
>>> time-to-time. If it
>>> isn't, then I'll find some other venue for the symfony specific
>>> questions ;-)
>>
>> The general policy is "PHP only". I have never seen a discussion on
>> symfony subjects
>> here.
> Okay, that's good to know. I'm sure I'll have some PHP questions at
> some point.
>
>> I would even expect people here telling you "work up to a decent
>> knowledge in PHP first".
> Unfortunately that isn't exactly an option. I've been working at a Java
> shop for 7 years, and suddenly we've been told we're going to become PHP
> only. And that we're going to be using Symfony. If I can't ramp up fast
> on both, I may not be able to keep my job :-/

Did myself start briefly look at Symfony2, as my development machine
isn't my local host I got a bit issues with it, as debug stuff seems to
be meant to run on local host only.
As I have loads of other things to do and I don't need Symfony for any
work related stuff, so I let it just wait. There are some tutorials on
their homepage which are worth taking a look at.


> Although, on that topic, what is a good tutorial to get a basic overview
> familiarity with PHP language features and libraries?

For me it's mainly been php.net which has been the main source of
information, valokuva.org a bit too for imagemagick.


> Luckily, I'm a good enough programmer with several languages under my
> belt. Moving to a somewhat foreign language shouldn't be *too*
> difficult. A good IDE and Google will help for most of my immediate
> problems.

I could recommend KDevelop, there will of course be those who favour
something else, but I think it's worth to test.

--

//Aho
Re: Is Symfony 2 on-topic in this newsgroup? [message #179298 is a reply to message #179294] Tue, 02 October 2012 13:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael Vilain is currently offline  Michael Vilain
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In article <WVDas.5288$sB3(dot)4138(at)newsfe05(dot)iad>,
Daniel Pitts <newsgroup(dot)nospam(at)virtualinfinity(dot)net> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
> I know some "programming language" newsgroups have different opinions on
> whether frameworks are on topic. I'm learning Symfony2, and re-learning
> PHP (after 5 years hiatus). If it is on-topic here, I may be asking
> questions from time-to-time. If it isn't, then I'll find some other
> venue for the symfony specific questions ;-)
>
> Thanks,
> Daniel.
>
> P.S. Hopefully this isn't too contentious of a topic. My hope is that
> there is a general consensus that "yes", it is on topic.

This sounds like new management's approach to "culling the herds". I
can't understand why there's be a switch from java to php all of a
sudden. Existing customers or applications need support. While java is
100% object oriented, php is more procedural. You can use a
oo-framework (maybe that's what symfony2 is?) but unless you know the
language and use php, that won't help.

Expectations on when you'll be up-to-speed and be able to take on
projects is also a concern. If they need php expertise RIGHT NOW, why
not hire someone good. And train the java people to bring everyone up
to speed.

I'd start cracking the books AND update your resume. It may be time to
move on.

--
DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...
[I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]
Re: Is Symfony 2 on-topic in this newsgroup? [message #179299 is a reply to message #179294] Tue, 02 October 2012 13:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 10/2/2012 11:40 AM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> I know some "programming language" newsgroups have different opinions on
> whether frameworks are on topic. I'm learning Symfony2, and re-learning
> PHP (after 5 years hiatus). If it is on-topic here, I may be asking
> questions from time-to-time. If it isn't, then I'll find some other
> venue for the symfony specific questions ;-)
>
> Thanks,
> Daniel.
>
> P.S. Hopefully this isn't too contentious of a topic. My hope is that
> there is a general consensus that "yes", it is on topic.

Daniel,

It's not so much that it's off topic but that few, if any, here, use it.
You'll be much better off finding a Symfony support forum or email
list to help you.

As for learning - php.net is a good reference source, but not that good
of a tutorial, IMHO. I'd suggest you check your local book store -
there have been some decent ones in the past. I would recommend one,
but I haven't really kept up on what's in print on it.

You can find a few good tutorials on the web, but you can also find a
LOT of BAD tutorials out there. Sorry, again, I don't have any
recommendations.

Since your shop was Java, you have some experience in setting coding
standards (at least I hope so! :) ). You'll find PHP is much "looser"
than Java and you can get away with a lot more bad coding practices. I
would highly recommend as your shop is learning that you get together
and set your own coding standards. It will make things a lot easier in
the long run.

And I hope they give you some time to learn PHP. It's not a hard
language to learn - in fact in many ways its easier to learn than Java.
But it does take time to learn it well and establish good programming
habits.

--
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Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
Re: Is Symfony 2 on-topic in this newsgroup? [message #179300 is a reply to message #179297] Tue, 02 October 2012 14:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Daniel Pitts is currently offline  Daniel Pitts
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On 10/2/12 10:26 AM, J.O. Aho wrote:
> I could recommend KDevelop, there will of course be those who favour
> something else, but I think it's worth to test.
Thanks for the recommendation, though my colleagues and I have settled
mostly on PhpStorm, as we were very happy with IntelliJ IDEA for Java,
and Jetbrains makes them both.
Re: Is Symfony 2 on-topic in this newsgroup? [message #179301 is a reply to message #179299] Tue, 02 October 2012 14:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Daniel Pitts is currently offline  Daniel Pitts
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On 10/2/12 10:37 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 10/2/2012 11:40 AM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>> I know some "programming language" newsgroups have different opinions on
>> whether frameworks are on topic. I'm learning Symfony2, and re-learning
>> PHP (after 5 years hiatus). If it is on-topic here, I may be asking
>> questions from time-to-time. If it isn't, then I'll find some other
>> venue for the symfony specific questions ;-)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Daniel.
>>
>> P.S. Hopefully this isn't too contentious of a topic. My hope is that
>> there is a general consensus that "yes", it is on topic.
>
> Daniel,
>
> It's not so much that it's off topic but that few, if any, here, use it.
> You'll be much better off finding a Symfony support forum or email
> list to help you.
>
> As for learning - php.net is a good reference source, but not that good
> of a tutorial, IMHO. I'd suggest you check your local book store -
> there have been some decent ones in the past. I would recommend one,
> but I haven't really kept up on what's in print on it.
>
> You can find a few good tutorials on the web, but you can also find a
> LOT of BAD tutorials out there. Sorry, again, I don't have any
> recommendations.
>
> Since your shop was Java, you have some experience in setting coding
> standards (at least I hope so! :) ). You'll find PHP is much "looser"
> than Java and you can get away with a lot more bad coding practices. I
> would highly recommend as your shop is learning that you get together
> and set your own coding standards. It will make things a lot easier in
> the long run.
>
> And I hope they give you some time to learn PHP. It's not a hard
> language to learn - in fact in many ways its easier to learn than Java.
> But it does take time to learn it well and establish good programming
> habits.
>

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

Symfony actually makes an attempt to move to a much more OO design. A
lot of the code I'm looking at now looks like Java code written with PHP
syntax. This is a comfortable feeling for me, though I'm not sure if
its a Good Thing™ :-)
Re: Is Symfony 2 on-topic in this newsgroup? [message #179303 is a reply to message #179296] Tue, 02 October 2012 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas 'PointedEars'  is currently offline  Thomas 'PointedEars'
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Daniel Pitts wrote:

> Although, on that topic, what is a good tutorial to get a basic overview
> familiarity with PHP language features and libraries?

The PHP online manual includes a PHP tutorial; that is probably the best one
because it was written and is maintained by the people who designed the
language. PHP (like ECMAScript implementations) has that "beginner's
language" touch that account for a lot of bad examples on the Web. There
are also a number of useful examples provided by experienced PHP developers
on the bottom of manual entries.

The PHP manual is available in several languages, but I have always
preferred the version in English even though it is not my native language;
it is more precise and up-to-date than the translations.

<http://php.net/manual>

> Luckily, I'm a good enough programmer with several languages under my
> belt. Moving to a somewhat foreign language shouldn't be *too*
> difficult. A good IDE and Google will help for most of my immediate
> problems.

You should try Eclipse PDT [1], Zend Studio [2], or Aptana Studio 3 [3], all
of which are based on the Eclipse Platform. Properly configured, they can
handle even rather large PHP projects (at least I can say that for the the
former two).


PointedEars
___________
[1]
<http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/packages/eclipse-php-developers/heliosr>
(old PHP package)

<http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/> (because lack of maintainer, there is no
PHP package for Juno; the Juno-compatible PDT version can be installed from
within Eclipse)

(If you use the plain PDT, you might want to use Eclipse 3.7.x or 3.8 as
base, because version 4.2 had been reported to be rather slow because of
lack of regression testing. This might have been fixed with the recently
released 4.2 SR-1. I have found the changelog for that to be empty and had
therefore decided not to upgrade just yet.)

[2]
<http://zend.com/studio> (more features, including refactoring; but does not
come for free)

[3]
<http://aptana.org/products/studio3/download> (AFAIK for free; I have not
really tried this, but I hear that it has built-in Zend Framework [4]
support)

[4] <http://framework.zend.com/>
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when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another
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Re: Is Symfony 2 on-topic in this newsgroup? [message #179306 is a reply to message #179296] Tue, 02 October 2012 18:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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Daniel Pitts wrote:
> On 10/2/12 9:08 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>> Am 02.10.2012 17:40, schrieb Daniel Pitts:
>>> Hello everyone,
>>> I know some "programming language" newsgroups have different opinions
>>> on whether
>>> frameworks are on topic. I'm learning Symfony2, and re-learning PHP
>>> (after 5 years
>>> hiatus). If it is on-topic here, I may be asking questions from
>>> time-to-time. If it
>>> isn't, then I'll find some other venue for the symfony specific
>>> questions ;-)
>>
>> The general policy is "PHP only". I have never seen a discussion on
>> symfony subjects
>> here.
> Okay, that's good to know. I'm sure I'll have some PHP questions at
> some point.
>
>> I would even expect people here telling you "work up to a decent
>> knowledge in PHP first".
> Unfortunately that isn't exactly an option. I've been working at a Java
> shop for 7 years, and suddenly we've been told we're going to become PHP
> only. And that we're going to be using Symfony. If I can't ramp up fast
> on both, I may not be able to keep my job :-/
>
> Although, on that topic, what is a good tutorial to get a basic overview
> familiarity with PHP language features and libraries?
>

RTFM the php one. Its basically interpreted C with a few special hooks
and a lightly different syntax and a broadly similar library.

http://www.php.net/manual/en/

There are some OO extensions which I personally didn't bother with, but
you may find them more familiar if you come from an OO background.

The bigger problem for me was understanding how to get the basic
framework up and running with all the libraries I wanted: Writing it is
simplicity itself by and large.



> Luckily, I'm a good enough programmer with several languages under my
> belt. Moving to a somewhat foreign language shouldn't be *too*
> difficult. A good IDE and Google will help for most of my immediate
> problems.


--
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(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: Is Symfony 2 on-topic in this newsgroup? [message #179307 is a reply to message #179294] Wed, 03 October 2012 04:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jonathan Stein is currently offline  Jonathan Stein
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Den 02-10-2012 17:40, Daniel Pitts skrev:

> I know some "programming language" newsgroups have different opinions on
> whether frameworks are on topic.

I haven't noticed any opinion against framework questions here, so give
it a try and hope there will be answers.

Regards

Jonathan
Re: Is Symfony 2 on-topic in this newsgroup? [message #179308 is a reply to message #179296] Wed, 03 October 2012 04:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
M. Strobel is currently offline  M. Strobel
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Am 02.10.2012 18:50, schrieb Daniel Pitts:
> On 10/2/12 9:08 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>> Am 02.10.2012 17:40, schrieb Daniel Pitts:
>>> Hello everyone,
>>> I know some "programming language" newsgroups have different opinions on whether
>>> frameworks are on topic. I'm learning Symfony2, and re-learning PHP (after 5 years
>>> hiatus). If it is on-topic here, I may be asking questions from time-to-time. If it
>>> isn't, then I'll find some other venue for the symfony specific questions ;-)
>>
>> The general policy is "PHP only". I have never seen a discussion on symfony subjects
>> here.
> Okay, that's good to know. I'm sure I'll have some PHP questions at some point.
>
>> I would even expect people here telling you "work up to a decent knowledge in PHP
>> first".
> Unfortunately that isn't exactly an option. I've been working at a Java shop for 7
> years, and suddenly we've been told we're going to become PHP only. And that we're
> going to be using Symfony. If I can't ramp up fast on both, I may not be able to
> keep my job :-/

This is a déjà vu (déjà lu) for me. Some time ago I read a similar post here. The
NG got into speculating if it was a good idea, and why one would do that.

But good programmers will not be cheap to hire in any language. Complex systems are
complex systems.

/Str.
Re: Is Symfony 2 on-topic in this newsgroup? [message #179313 is a reply to message #179307] Wed, 03 October 2012 11:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 10/3/2012 4:02 AM, Jonathan Stein wrote:
> Den 02-10-2012 17:40, Daniel Pitts skrev:
>
>> I know some "programming language" newsgroups have different opinions on
>> whether frameworks are on topic.
>
> I haven't noticed any opinion against framework questions here, so give
> it a try and hope there will be answers.
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan
>

Jonathan, you'll be much better off getting help in the support group
for your framework. They know their code better than anyone here.

--
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Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
Re: Is Symfony 2 on-topic in this newsgroup? [message #179316 is a reply to message #179308] Wed, 03 October 2012 12:26 Go to previous message
Daniel Pitts is currently offline  Daniel Pitts
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On 10/3/12 1:15 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
> Am 02.10.2012 18:50, schrieb Daniel Pitts:
>> On 10/2/12 9:08 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>>> Am 02.10.2012 17:40, schrieb Daniel Pitts:
>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>> I know some "programming language" newsgroups have different opinions on whether
>>>> frameworks are on topic. I'm learning Symfony2, and re-learning PHP (after 5 years
>>>> hiatus). If it is on-topic here, I may be asking questions from time-to-time. If it
>>>> isn't, then I'll find some other venue for the symfony specific questions ;-)
>>>
>>> The general policy is "PHP only". I have never seen a discussion on symfony subjects
>>> here.
>> Okay, that's good to know. I'm sure I'll have some PHP questions at some point.
>>
>>> I would even expect people here telling you "work up to a decent knowledge in PHP
>>> first".
>> Unfortunately that isn't exactly an option. I've been working at a Java shop for 7
>> years, and suddenly we've been told we're going to become PHP only. And that we're
>> going to be using Symfony. If I can't ramp up fast on both, I may not be able to
>> keep my job :-/
>
> This is a déjà vu (déjà lu) for me. Some time ago I read a similar post here. The
> NG got into speculating if it was a good idea, and why one would do that.
It may have been sparked by me. I recall asking some basic questions
when I first heard we might be switching to PHP. I recall the discussion
got beyond the point where it mattered to me any more, so I stopped
reading this NG for a while.

> But good programmers will not be cheap to hire in any language. Complex systems are
> complex systems.

Yes, and as a matter of fact, it seems that Symfony may be somewhat
specialized anyway, so a "Symfony programmer" is likely more expensive
than a "regular PHP programmer". Luckily for my, Symfony "feels" like
Java in many ways, so I'm very comfortable with the idioms.

We live in interesting times.
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