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Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180060] Wed, 02 January 2013 21:50 Go to next message
r.mariotti is currently offline  r.mariotti
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I've introduced an elusive bug into a rather large PHP program. I've
been debugging it my usual ways for several weeks now without success.

I would like to "watch" certain vairables to see when they are altered
and where as well as to what. I've installed xdebug on my server and
netbeans IDE on my Windoze desktop. I can't figure out how to "watch"
a variable. Otherwise I've got the IDE working.

I've also tried installing phpbuglost as a debugger. Looks promising
but I can't get it to work. I also found debugConsole but that seems
to be defunt.

So, I'm asking for suggestions and, regarding the phpbuglost, how did
anyone get it working?

I'm not asking anyone to fix my bug(s), just provide some insight on
good/useful php debuggers.

Thanks all.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180061 is a reply to message #180060] Wed, 02 January 2013 23:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 1/2/2013 9:50 PM, BobMCT wrote:
> I've introduced an elusive bug into a rather large PHP program. I've
> been debugging it my usual ways for several weeks now without success.
>
> I would like to "watch" certain vairables to see when they are altered
> and where as well as to what. I've installed xdebug on my server and
> netbeans IDE on my Windoze desktop. I can't figure out how to "watch"
> a variable. Otherwise I've got the IDE working.
>
> I've also tried installing phpbuglost as a debugger. Looks promising
> but I can't get it to work. I also found debugConsole but that seems
> to be defunt.
>
> So, I'm asking for suggestions and, regarding the phpbuglost, how did
> anyone get it working?
>
> I'm not asking anyone to fix my bug(s), just provide some insight on
> good/useful php debuggers.
>
> Thanks all.
>

Bob,

I use xdebug with eclipse IDE. It works well. Haven't tried netbeans.

--
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==================
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180062 is a reply to message #180060] Thu, 03 January 2013 04:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
M. Strobel is currently offline  M. Strobel
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Am 03.01.2013 03:50, schrieb BobMCT:
> I've introduced an elusive bug into a rather large PHP program. I've
> been debugging it my usual ways for several weeks now without success.
>
> I would like to "watch" certain vairables to see when they are altered
> and where as well as to what. I've installed xdebug on my server and
> netbeans IDE on my Windoze desktop. I can't figure out how to "watch"
> a variable. Otherwise I've got the IDE working.
>
> I've also tried installing phpbuglost as a debugger. Looks promising
> but I can't get it to work. I also found debugConsole but that seems
> to be defunt.
>
> So, I'm asking for suggestions and, regarding the phpbuglost, how did
> anyone get it working?
>
> I'm not asking anyone to fix my bug(s), just provide some insight on
> good/useful php debuggers.

A programmer must be able to configure his debugger.

Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.

The xdebug ini looks like this:

zend_extension=/whatever/your/path/to/usr/lib/php5/20100525/xdebug.so
xdebug.remote_enable = On
xdebug.remote_host = 192.168.0.111
xdebug.idekey = ohmy

Start your IDE, configure "listen for debugger connections on port 9000".

Go to your browser, enter your URL like this:
http://mysite.example.com/index.html?XDEBUG_SESSION_START=ohmy

Now your IDE pops up a message, and on it goes in debug mode. You get at least:

buttons for single step, step over procedure, return from procedure, and run (to the
end), display areas where you see all variables of the current step scope, and a
display area for globals and superglobals.

EVERY PHP PROGRAMMER SHOULD HAVE THIS.

/Str.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180064 is a reply to message #180062] Thu, 03 January 2013 06:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bill is currently offline  bill
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>
> Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.

Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?

bill
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180065 is a reply to message #180064] Thu, 03 January 2013 08:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
M. Strobel is currently offline  M. Strobel
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Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
>
>>
>> Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>
> Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
> ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
>

I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org, but it was in
alpha state.

You can dump execution traces.

But why worry? A developer has an IDE.

/Str.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180066 is a reply to message #180065] Fri, 04 January 2013 07:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bill is currently offline  bill
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On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
> Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
>>
>>>
>>> Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>>
>> Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
>> ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
>>
>
> I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org, but it was in
> alpha state.
>
> You can dump execution traces.
>
> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>
> /Str.
>

I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
bill
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180067 is a reply to message #180066] Fri, 04 January 2013 08:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 1/4/2013 7:06 AM, bill wrote:
> On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>> Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>>>
>>> Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
>>> ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
>>>
>>
>> I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org,
>> but it was in
>> alpha state.
>>
>> You can dump execution traces.
>>
>> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>>
>> /Str.
>>
>
> I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
> bill

Sorry, I agree. A DEVELOPER has an IDE. A hacker uses an editor.

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Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180068 is a reply to message #180066] Fri, 04 January 2013 09:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gregor Kofler is currently offline  Gregor Kofler
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Am 2013-01-04 13:06, bill meinte:
> On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>> Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>>>
>>> Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
>>> ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
>>>
>>
>> I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org,
>> but it was in
>> alpha state.
>>
>> You can dump execution traces.
>>
>> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>>
>> /Str.
>>
>
> I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.

Then you are not a developer.

Gregor
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180069 is a reply to message #180068] Fri, 04 January 2013 09:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas 'PointedEars'  is currently offline  Thomas 'PointedEars'
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Gregor Kofler wrote:

> Am 2013-01-04 13:06, bill meinte:
>> On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>>> Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
>>>> > Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>>>> Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
>>>> ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
>>>
>>> I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org,
>>> but it was in
>>> alpha state.
>>>
>>> You can dump execution traces.
>>>
>>> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>>
>> I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
>
> Then you are not a developer.

“No true Scotsman” fallacy. It would be logical to point out instead
that an IDE-integrated editor such as Eclipse PDT has advantages such
as integrated remote debugging over a standalone one.


PointedEars
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Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180070 is a reply to message #180067] Fri, 04 January 2013 11:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter H. Coffin is currently offline  Peter H. Coffin
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On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:52:33 -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 1/4/2013 7:06 AM, bill wrote:
>> On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>>> Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>>>>
>>>> Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
>>>> ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org,
>>> but it was in
>>> alpha state.
>>>
>>> You can dump execution traces.
>>>
>>> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>>>
>>> /Str.
>>>
>>
>> I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
>> bill
>
> Sorry, I agree. A DEVELOPER has an IDE. A hacker uses an editor.

A real hacker redirects echo straight to a text file. (;

--
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immediately in a quiet civil ceremony, not a lavish spectacle in
three weeks' time during which the final phase of my plan will be
carried out. --Peter Anspach's Evil Overlord list
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180071 is a reply to message #180070] Fri, 04 January 2013 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 04/01/13 16:50, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:52:33 -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 1/4/2013 7:06 AM, bill wrote:
>>> On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>>>> Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>>>> >
>>>> > Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
>>>> > ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org,
>>>> but it was in
>>>> alpha state.
>>>>
>>>> You can dump execution traces.
>>>>
>>>> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>>>>
>>>> /Str.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
>>> bill
>>
>> Sorry, I agree. A DEVELOPER has an IDE. A hacker uses an editor.
>
> A real hacker redirects echo straight to a text file. (;
>
Its about as stupid as saying a real woodworker has a planer
thicknesser, table router, spindle moulder and a press.

And doesn't use hammers chisels and hand saws and scrapers.

Yet the best musical instruments and cabinet making is all done with
hand tools.

I was writing code long before we HAD IDEs. And once you had blown the
EAROM you had to guess at why it didn't work. Because we didn't have
enough ICES to go round.

BECAUSE we were professionals we learnt to write code in such a way that
the chances of a bug were very very low.

Its hackers who use IDES to throw code together, and then spend the next
day bodging it until it works, simply because they have the tools that
make debugging easier than writing proper code in the first place.

The youth of today...

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180072 is a reply to message #180070] Fri, 04 January 2013 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
M. Strobel is currently offline  M. Strobel
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Am 04.01.2013 17:50, schrieb Peter H. Coffin:
> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:52:33 -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 1/4/2013 7:06 AM, bill wrote:
>>> On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>>>> Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>>>> >
>>>> > Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
>>>> > ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org,
>>>> but it was in
>>>> alpha state.
>>>>
>>>> You can dump execution traces.
>>>>
>>>> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>>>>
>>>> /Str.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
>>> bill
>>
>> Sorry, I agree. A DEVELOPER has an IDE. A hacker uses an editor.
>
> A real hacker redirects echo straight to a text file. (;

.... using ssh sessions spanning at least 10 servers. It is just faster.

/Str.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180073 is a reply to message #180071] Fri, 04 January 2013 14:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 1/4/2013 1:13 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 04/01/13 16:50, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
>> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:52:33 -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> On 1/4/2013 7:06 AM, bill wrote:
>>>> On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>>>> > Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
>>>> >> ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org,
>>>> > but it was in
>>>> > alpha state.
>>>> >
>>>> > You can dump execution traces.
>>>> >
>>>> > But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>>>> >
>>>> > /Str.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
>>>> bill
>>>
>>> Sorry, I agree. A DEVELOPER has an IDE. A hacker uses an editor.
>>
>> A real hacker redirects echo straight to a text file. (;
>>
> Its about as stupid as saying a real woodworker has a planer
> thicknesser, table router, spindle moulder and a press.
>
> And doesn't use hammers chisels and hand saws and scrapers.
>
> Yet the best musical instruments and cabinet making is all done with
> hand tools.
>
> I was writing code long before we HAD IDEs. And once you had blown the
> EAROM you had to guess at why it didn't work. Because we didn't have
> enough ICES to go round.
>
> BECAUSE we were professionals we learnt to write code in such a way that
> the chances of a bug were very very low.
>
> Its hackers who use IDES to throw code together, and then spend the next
> day bodging it until it works, simply because they have the tools that
> make debugging easier than writing proper code in the first place.
>
> The youth of today...
>

I started writing code using paper tapes and punch cards. Every job was
a batch run - submit the program and get the printout back (in college
that meant typically a 24 hour turnaround). Debug your code, make the
corrections (easier with punch cards than tape!) and resubmit the job.

That doesn't mean I'm still doing it. Good programmers learn better
ways of doing things. Others just complain about "the youth of today".

--
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jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180074 is a reply to message #180071] Fri, 04 January 2013 15:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Twayne is currently offline  Twayne
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....

> BECAUSE we were professionals we learnt to write code in
> such a way that the chances of a bug were very very low.

No, what you actually dd was learn PHP well enough over time to avoid many
of its pitfalls. It's also likely PHP was kinder and easier to work with in
those days and you simply grew with it.
>
> Its hackers who use IDES to throw code together, and then
> spend the next day bodging it until it works, simply
> because they have the tools that make debugging easier
> than writing proper code in the first place.

An IDE does not mean you don't have to know PHP. An IDE is a tool and only a
tool and what it can actually do is help make coding more efficient and
faster for time to production. I've found an IDE is also a good way to learn
about degugging, too. I tried a few IDE's but eventually tossed the out ni
favor of NotePad ++ and NoteTab 6. One is sxcellent for highlighting and
lets you write your own clips to use and the other allows a single-click to
send my work to my local on-machine server. They both monitor the file
worked on and if one gets out of step from the other, it knows it and allows
you to reload the most current state of the file/s (or not, depending). And
a lot more. These indeed help a lot with writing PHP or most any other
language; it includes clips for several languages you might use.
>
> The youth of today...

My mind might still be "young" but my body's about out of fuel and nearing
70.

HTH,

Twayne`
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180075 is a reply to message #180074] Fri, 04 January 2013 15:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 04/01/13 20:19, Twayne wrote:
> ...
>
>> BECAUSE we were professionals we learnt to write code in
>> such a way that the chances of a bug were very very low.
>
> No, what you actually dd was learn PHP well enough over time to avoid many
> of its pitfalls. It's also likely PHP was kinder and easier to work with in
> those days and you simply grew with it.

Er no that wasnt PHP. That was mainly micro assembler. where comments
were the only thing that made it comprehensible.

]
>>
>> Its hackers who use IDES to throw code together, and then
>> spend the next day bodging it until it works, simply
>> because they have the tools that make debugging easier
>> than writing proper code in the first place.
>
> An IDE does not mean you don't have to know PHP. An IDE is a tool and only a
> tool and what it can actually do is help make coding more efficient and
> faster for time to production. I've found an IDE is also a good way to learn
> about degugging, too. I tried a few IDE's but eventually tossed the out ni
> favor of NotePad ++ and NoteTab 6. One is sxcellent for highlighting and
> lets you write your own clips to use and the other allows a single-click to
> send my work to my local on-machine server. They both monitor the file
> worked on and if one gets out of step from the other, it knows it and allows
> you to reload the most current state of the file/s (or not, depending). And
> a lot more. These indeed help a lot with writing PHP or most any other
> language; it includes clips for several languages you might use.
>>
>> The youth of today...
>
> My mind might still be "young" but my body's about out of fuel and nearing
> 70.
>
> HTH,
>
> Twayne`
>
>


--
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(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180076 is a reply to message #180060] Fri, 04 January 2013 17:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
legalize+jeeves is currently offline  legalize+jeeves
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[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

BobMCT <r(dot)mariotti(at)fdcx(dot)net> spake the secret code
<26s9e8l3cneb5b4a3tim6qutmnl9g7ca2i(at)4ax(dot)com> thusly:

> I'm not asking anyone to fix my bug(s), just provide some insight on
> good/useful php debuggers.

I've been using PHPStorm from JetBrains for local debugging under
Windows. I don't have unrestricted access to the remote host where
the application is deployed, so I mostly debug locally with a local
instance of mysql and PHP running under IIS.

It works just fine for debugging, but I have a feeling I haven't
completely setup the run configurations properly as I haven't yet
managed to coax the IDE into running my PHPUnit unit tests. I still
run those from a command prompt.

My project is open source: <http://manx.codeplex.com>
--
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Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180077 is a reply to message #180071] Fri, 04 January 2013 22:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter H. Coffin is currently offline  Peter H. Coffin
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On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 18:13:30 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 04/01/13 16:50, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
>> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:52:33 -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>
>>> Sorry, I agree. A DEVELOPER has an IDE. A hacker uses an editor.
>>
>> A real hacker redirects echo straight to a text file. (;
>>
> Its about as stupid as saying a real woodworker has a planer
> thicknesser, table router, spindle moulder and a press.
>
> And doesn't use hammers chisels and hand saws and scrapers.
>
> Yet the best musical instruments and cabinet making is all done with
> hand tools.

Good grief. I get enough hassle about people not being able to tell if
I'm joking without marking up humor with emoticons and you're not
willing to take something as humorous even with? That can't be good for
your health, man...

--
Cunningham's Third Law:
The reliability of a complex system is inversely proportional to the
contactability of the person who knows most about it.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180078 is a reply to message #180077] Fri, 04 January 2013 23:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 05/01/13 03:39, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 18:13:30 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 04/01/13 16:50, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:52:33 -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I agree. A DEVELOPER has an IDE. A hacker uses an editor.
>>>
>>> A real hacker redirects echo straight to a text file. (;
>>>
>> Its about as stupid as saying a real woodworker has a planer
>> thicknesser, table router, spindle moulder and a press.
>>
>> And doesn't use hammers chisels and hand saws and scrapers.
>>
>> Yet the best musical instruments and cabinet making is all done with
>> hand tools.
>
> Good grief. I get enough hassle about people not being able to tell if
> I'm joking without marking up humor with emoticons and you're not
> willing to take something as humorous even with? That can't be good for
> your health, man...
>
My response was really to Stucklehead, but he's in my killfile.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180079 is a reply to message #180077] Sat, 05 January 2013 03:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas 'PointedEars'  is currently offline  Thomas 'PointedEars'
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Peter H. Coffin wrote:

> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 18:13:30 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 04/01/13 16:50, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:52:33 -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> Sorry, I agree. A DEVELOPER has an IDE. A hacker uses an editor.
>>> A real hacker redirects echo straight to a text file. (;
>> Its about as stupid as saying a real woodworker has a planer
>> thicknesser, table router, spindle moulder and a press.
>>
>> And doesn't use hammers chisels and hand saws and scrapers.
>>
>> Yet the best musical instruments and cabinet making is all done with
>> hand tools.
>
> Good grief. I get enough hassle about people not being able to tell if
> I'm joking without marking up humor with emoticons and you're not
> willing to take something as humorous even with? That can't be good for
> your health, man...

Perhaps some need smileys looking the other way ;-)


PointedEars
--
> If you get a bunch of authors […] that state the same "best practices"
> in any programming language, then you can bet who is wrong or right...
Not with javascript. Nonsense propagates like wildfire in this field.
-- Richard Cornford, comp.lang.javascript, 2011-11-14
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180080 is a reply to message #180071] Sat, 05 January 2013 04:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gregor Kofler is currently offline  Gregor Kofler
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Am 2013-01-04 19:13, The Natural Philosopher meinte:

> I was writing code long before we HAD IDEs.

Naturally.

> BECAUSE we were professionals we learnt to write code in such a way that
> the chances of a bug were very very low.
>
> Its hackers who use IDES to throw code together, and then spend the next
> day bodging it until it works, simply because they have the tools that
> make debugging easier than writing proper code in the first place.

So you'd suggest that professional developers stick to vi (and vi
alone)? Professional developers don't need debuggers, unit tests,
automated versioning, automated documentation generation, deployment tools?

> The youth of today...

IIRC I wrote my first program 29 years ago (in BASIC on a ZX Spectrum)
and I prefer a decent IDE for most jobs - do I qualify as youngling?

Gregor
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180081 is a reply to message #180067] Sat, 05 January 2013 06:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crankypuss is currently offline  crankypuss
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On 01/04/2013 06:52 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 1/4/2013 7:06 AM, bill wrote:
>> On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>>> Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>>>>
>>>> Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
>>>> ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org,
>>> but it was in
>>> alpha state.
>>>
>>> You can dump execution traces.
>>>
>>> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>>>
>>> /Str.
>>>
>>
>> I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
>> bill
>
> Sorry, I agree. A DEVELOPER has an IDE. A hacker uses an editor.
>

Please, Jerry; such unthinking buffoonery is beneath you, you are
neither an idiot nor a fool so why present yourself as a bigoted
software redneck.

Developers do what is necessary, including building their own IDE using
an editor, or the fucking dip-switches if that's what it takes. Lamers
subject to significant brain damage from too many years of doing as they
are told only have an IDE, the one that is most politically correct, or
has been chosen by some idiot who has sucked up to management.

It is absolutely unnecessary to have an IDE in order to have a debugger,
the debugger does its part of the job, the editor does its part, and an
IDE tries to take it all upon itself to hoard the credit... in some
cases an IDE might actually make things more convenient overall, but
I've seen more cases of IDEs making things more of a pain in the ass.

The word "hacker" seems to have come into vogue and now seems to be
leaving the fad building; back in the day, a "hack" described a quack
doctor, or an incompetent professional. People want to think they are
hackers when that is the politically acceptable thing, "developers" when
that is more fashionable. Nobody is content to be a programmer anymore,
everybody is most interested in gathering the acclaim suggested by a
fancy title. Developer, hacker, blah blah blah. Just get the job done.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180082 is a reply to message #180068] Sat, 05 January 2013 06:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crankypuss is currently offline  crankypuss
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On 01/04/2013 07:22 AM, Gregor Kofler wrote:
> Am 2013-01-04 13:06, bill meinte:
>> On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>>> Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>>>>
>>>> Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
>>>> ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org,
>>> but it was in
>>> alpha state.
>>>
>>> You can dump execution traces.
>>>
>>> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>>>
>>> /Str.
>>>
>>
>> I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
>
> Then you are not a developer.
>
> Gregor
>

You forgot the smiley. You must have forgotten the smiley, you couldn't
possibly be as stupid as saying that and meaning it indicates. Next
time remember the smiley.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180083 is a reply to message #180080] Sat, 05 January 2013 07:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 05/01/13 09:47, Gregor Kofler wrote:
> Am 2013-01-04 19:13, The Natural Philosopher meinte:
>
>> I was writing code long before we HAD IDEs.
>
> Naturally.
>
>> BECAUSE we were professionals we learnt to write code in such a way that
>> the chances of a bug were very very low.
>>
>> Its hackers who use IDES to throw code together, and then spend the next
>> day bodging it until it works, simply because they have the tools that
>> make debugging easier than writing proper code in the first place.
>
> So you'd suggest that professional developers stick to vi (and vi
> alone)? Professional developers don't need debuggers, unit tests,
> automated versioning, automated documentation generation, deployment tools?
>

Not at all.

I just maintain that you don't judge a workman by his tools.

But by results.

And buying fancy tools doesn't turn a bad coder into a professional.


>> The youth of today...
>
> IIRC I wrote my first program 29 years ago (in BASIC on a ZX Spectrum)
> and I prefer a decent IDE for most jobs - do I qualify as youngling?
>

dunno.

I dont write large code projects these days. And if I do I tend to use C
anyway. Php is a small shim, to work the user interface mostly. The
grunt work is in C. Modular code and the same style I have always used:
keep subroutines short, well documented, put debug code in when it
doesn't work, take it out again afterwards..think before you code..think
twice and write it down before you construct any SQL table...

The majority of errors are syntax. Compilers pick those up quickly. I
hate it in PHP that if I mistype a variable it accepts it anyway. In C
it tells me its undeclared.

If I write code thats so complex I cant spot the subtle bug, I rewrite
it in simpler form,. Its bad code practice to write stuff even YOU dont
understand.

That's the difference between professional coders and Stuckle. Pro
coders use what tools they have and do the best they can. All stuckle
can think about is that he's got a better tool than you, so he must be a
better coder.


> Gregor


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180084 is a reply to message #180081] Sat, 05 January 2013 08:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 1/5/2013 6:01 AM, crankypuss wrote:
> On 01/04/2013 06:52 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 1/4/2013 7:06 AM, bill wrote:
>>> On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>>>> Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>>>> >
>>>> > Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
>>>> > ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org,
>>>> but it was in
>>>> alpha state.
>>>>
>>>> You can dump execution traces.
>>>>
>>>> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>>>>
>>>> /Str.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
>>> bill
>>
>> Sorry, I agree. A DEVELOPER has an IDE. A hacker uses an editor.
>>
>
> Please, Jerry; such unthinking buffoonery is beneath you, you are
> neither an idiot nor a fool so why present yourself as a bigoted
> software redneck.
>
> Developers do what is necessary, including building their own IDE using
> an editor, or the fucking dip-switches if that's what it takes. Lamers
> subject to significant brain damage from too many years of doing as they
> are told only have an IDE, the one that is most politically correct, or
> has been chosen by some idiot who has sucked up to management.
>

Yes, developers do what is necessary - including acquiring the correct
tools to make their job easier and more efficient. This includes an
IDE. And no, GOOD developers don't waste their time creating an IDE -
there are several already available they can use - which allows them to
spend their time being productive. I don't know of any carpenters who
build their own hammers.

> It is absolutely unnecessary to have an IDE in order to have a debugger,
> the debugger does its part of the job, the editor does its part, and an
> IDE tries to take it all upon itself to hoard the credit... in some
> cases an IDE might actually make things more convenient overall, but
> I've seen more cases of IDEs making things more of a pain in the ass.
>

No, and it's not necessary for a carpenter to have a hammer. But a good
IDE with an integrated debugger is much more efficient a separate
debugger.

Yes, the wrong IDE can be a PITA - but often times the problem is the
developer not taking the time to learn a new tool properly.

> The word "hacker" seems to have come into vogue and now seems to be
> leaving the fad building; back in the day, a "hack" described a quack
> doctor, or an incompetent professional. People want to think they are
> hackers when that is the politically acceptable thing, "developers" when
> that is more fashionable. Nobody is content to be a programmer anymore,
> everybody is most interested in gathering the acclaim suggested by a
> fancy title. Developer, hacker, blah blah blah. Just get the job done.


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180085 is a reply to message #180068] Sat, 05 January 2013 08:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tim Streater is currently offline  Tim Streater
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In article <kc6oj3$s5g$1(at)dont-email(dot)me>,
Gregor Kofler <usenet(at)gregorkofler(dot)com> wrote:

> Am 2013-01-04 13:06, bill meinte:
>> On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>>> Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:

>>>> > Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>>>>
>>>> Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
>>>> ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?

>>> I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org,
>>> but it was in alpha state.
>>>
>>> You can dump execution traces.
>>>
>>> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>> I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
>
> Then you are not a developer.

Big nonsense.

--
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180086 is a reply to message #180081] Sat, 05 January 2013 10:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Miller is currently offline  Doug Miller
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crankypuss <noemail(at)noemail(dot)invalid> wrote in news:kc915i0co4(at)news3(dot)newsguy(dot)com:

> On 01/04/2013 06:52 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> Sorry, I agree. A DEVELOPER has an IDE. A hacker uses an editor.
>
> Please, Jerry; such unthinking buffoonery is beneath you,

No, it's not.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180087 is a reply to message #180086] Sat, 05 January 2013 10:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tim Streater is currently offline  Tim Streater
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In article <XnsA13F6DB3FF4D0dougmilmaccom(at)88(dot)198(dot)244(dot)100>,
Doug Miller <doug_at_milmac_dot_com(at)example(dot)com> wrote:

> crankypuss <noemail(at)noemail(dot)invalid> wrote in
> news:kc915i0co4(at)news3(dot)newsguy(dot)com:
>
>> On 01/04/2013 06:52 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> Sorry, I agree. A DEVELOPER has an IDE. A hacker uses an editor.
>>
>> Please, Jerry; such unthinking buffoonery is beneath you,
>
> No, it's not.

Jerry's just being a fathead. I've had no need for anything other than
echo for the last 12 years.

--
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180088 is a reply to message #180085] Sat, 05 January 2013 11:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
M. Strobel is currently offline  M. Strobel
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Am 05.01.2013 14:55, schrieb Tim Streater:
> In article <kc6oj3$s5g$1(at)dont-email(dot)me>,
> Gregor Kofler <usenet(at)gregorkofler(dot)com> wrote:
>
>> Am 2013-01-04 13:06, bill meinte:
>>> On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
>>>> Am 03.01.2013 12:52, schrieb bill:
>
>>>> >> Use xdebug, and a IDE that does it, for example Komodo IDE.
>>>> >
>>>> > Is there a remote debugger that does not require and IDE?
>>>> > ie: one I can open in a 2nd browser window?
>
>>>> I once found a xdebug_client directly from the makers at xdebug.org,
>>>> but it was in alpha state.
>>>>
>>>> You can dump execution traces.
>>>>
>>>> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>>> I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
>>
>> Then you are not a developer.
>
> Big nonsense.


Are you sure you're having fun?

We are at the basics of logic, that every programmer must know:

isDev(a) ⇒ hasIde(a)

¬hasIde(a) ⇒ ¬isDev(a)

/Str.
hoping you are not using a 7 bit limited world view, so you can reason about this
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180089 is a reply to message #180060] Sat, 05 January 2013 12:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Scott Johnson is currently offline  Scott Johnson
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On 1/2/2013 6:50 PM, BobMCT wrote:
> I've introduced an elusive bug into a rather large PHP program. I've
> been debugging it my usual ways for several weeks now without success.
>
> I would like to "watch" certain vairables to see when they are altered
> and where as well as to what. I've installed xdebug on my server and
> netbeans IDE on my Windoze desktop. I can't figure out how to "watch"
> a variable. Otherwise I've got the IDE working.
>
> I've also tried installing phpbuglost as a debugger. Looks promising
> but I can't get it to work. I also found debugConsole but that seems
> to be defunt.
>
> So, I'm asking for suggestions and, regarding the phpbuglost, how did
> anyone get it working?
>
> I'm not asking anyone to fix my bug(s), just provide some insight on
> good/useful php debuggers.
>
> Thanks all.
>

Warning to anyone entering this thread. Make sure you are wearing eye
protection and cups if needed. It is getting pretty vicious (as usual).
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180090 is a reply to message #180087] Sat, 05 January 2013 12:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anders Wegge Keller is currently offline  Anders Wegge Keller
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Subject: Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers?
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Tim Streater <timstreater(at)greenbee(dot)net> writes:

> Jerry's just being a fathead. I've had no need for anything other
> than echo for the last 12 years.

Could you please call it off? The fact that Jerry need training
wheels on his editor, does not make him less (or for that matter,
more) of a programmer.

We all have our peculiar style of development. Some cannot work
without a WIMP-interface; other of us work better without. Some want
everything in one neat package; other want to cherry-pick the perfect
set of tools. Some of us can make a design up front, and stick to it;
other want to re-factor[1] their way. Some know PHP in such a detail,
that the occasional check for syntax in another tool, isn't that much
of a hassle; others can't be bothered to remember stuff, that can be
had as a pop-up in the editor. etc. etc.

So in short, the discussion about IDE[2] or not is at best a
meningless dick-size-war, similar to the ceaseless attacks that the
heathens of VI makes on the sacred lands of emacs[3] :)


1. If any of you also develop C, take a look at Coccinelle
<http://coccinelle.lip6.fr/> if you are in the re-factoring camp.

2. Of the definition of an IDE, for that matter.

3. The only OS I know of, that has had success in disguising itself as
an editor.
--
/Wegge

Leder efter redundant peering af dk.*,linux.debian.*
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180091 is a reply to message #180073] Sat, 05 January 2013 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Martin Leese is currently offline  Martin Leese
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Jerry Stuckle wrote:

> I started writing code using paper tapes and punch cards.

Luxury.

--
Regards,
Martin Leese
E-mail: please(at)see(dot)Web(dot)for(dot)e-mail(dot)INVALID
Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180092 is a reply to message #180086] Sat, 05 January 2013 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 05/01/13 15:47, Doug Miller wrote:
> crankypuss <noemail(at)noemail(dot)invalid> wrote in news:kc915i0co4(at)news3(dot)newsguy(dot)com:
>
>> On 01/04/2013 06:52 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> Sorry, I agree. A DEVELOPER has an IDE. A hacker uses an editor.
>>
>> Please, Jerry; such unthinking buffoonery is beneath you,
>
> No, it's not.
>
Its his speciality.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180093 is a reply to message #180090] Sat, 05 January 2013 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 05/01/13 17:51, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:

> So in short, the discussion about IDE[2] or not is at best a
> meningless dick-size-war, similar to the ceaseless attacks that the
> heathens of VI makes on the sacred lands of emacs[3] :)
>
+1

I learnt vi because it was all there was on most of the systems I worked
on.

It is possibly the worst excuse for a word processor/ text editor or
whatever that it is possible to imagine. I would never defend it.

BUT I still use it. Because frankly I learnt to use it, because I had to
and for a bit of casual script editing it suffices.

However for coding I use a text editor with a bit of text decoration.
Geany or Pluma these days.

I dont feel deprived.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180094 is a reply to message #180091] Sat, 05 January 2013 13:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 05/01/13 18:13, Martin Leese wrote:
> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>
>> I started writing code using paper tapes and punch cards.
>
> Luxury.
>
So did I and it was so appalling I didn't write code for another ten years.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180095 is a reply to message #180090] Sat, 05 January 2013 13:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tim Streater is currently offline  Tim Streater
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In article <87a9snh627(dot)fsf(at)huddi(dot)jernurt(dot)dk>,
Anders Wegge Keller <wegge(at)wegge(dot)dk> wrote:

> Tim Streater <timstreater(at)greenbee(dot)net> writes:
>
>> Jerry's just being a fathead. I've had no need for anything other
>> than echo for the last 12 years.
>
> Could you please call it off?

Probably not.

> The fact that Jerry need training wheels on his editor, does not
> make him less (or for that matter, more) of a programmer.

Indeed, and no one has asserted that. The discussion has moved on to
whether Jerry is a clown or not.

--
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180096 is a reply to message #180093] Sat, 05 January 2013 13:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tim Streater is currently offline  Tim Streater
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In article <kc9rgd$d0l$1(at)news(dot)albasani(dot)net>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp(at)invalid(dot)invalid> wrote:

> On 05/01/13 17:51, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:
>
>> So in short, the discussion about IDE[2] or not is at best a
>> meningless dick-size-war, similar to the ceaseless attacks that the
>> heathens of VI makes on the sacred lands of emacs[3] :)
>>
> +1
>
> I learnt vi because it was all there was on most of the systems I worked
> on.
>
> It is possibly the worst excuse for a word processor/ text editor or
> whatever that it is possible to imagine. I would never defend it.

Indeed and there's no other reason to learn it.

> BUT I still use it. Because frankly I learnt to use it, because I had to
> and for a bit of casual script editing it suffices.

I just refer to the summary card I have from using it under Ultrix.

> However for coding I use a text editor with a bit of text decoration.
> Geany or Pluma these days.

TextWrangler.

> I dont feel deprived.

You aren't.

--
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180097 is a reply to message #180095] Sat, 05 January 2013 13:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anders Wegge Keller is currently offline  Anders Wegge Keller
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Tim Streater <timstreater(at)greenbee(dot)net> writes:

> Indeed, and no one has asserted that. The discussion has moved on to
> whether Jerry is a clown or not.

Could you then please base that discussion on some factors that at
least *pretend* to be objective?

--
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Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180098 is a reply to message #180084] Sat, 05 January 2013 14:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crankypuss is currently offline  crankypuss
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On 01/05/2013 06:35 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> Yes, developers do what is necessary - including acquiring the correct
> tools to make their job easier and more efficient. This includes an
> IDE. And no, GOOD developers don't waste their time creating an IDE -
> there are several already available they can use - which allows them to
> spend their time being productive. I don't know of any carpenters who
> build their own hammers.

Typical employee "yes massah" philosophy.

When the available tools are crap, I build my own and save time in the
long run.

No, I don't usually build my own hammers, because the morons of the
world have golly whiz finally figured out how to make hammers.

I have however, on occasion, made my own drill bits.

Your experience with PHP debuggers is whatever it is, that's what the OP
asked about. I'm probably going to install xdebug and see what can be
done with it... as for there being a decent IDE to hook up to it, I'm
somewhat less than optimistic.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180099 is a reply to message #180098] Sat, 05 January 2013 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 1/5/2013 2:07 PM, crankypuss wrote:
> On 01/05/2013 06:35 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> Yes, developers do what is necessary - including acquiring the correct
>> tools to make their job easier and more efficient. This includes an
>> IDE. And no, GOOD developers don't waste their time creating an IDE -
>> there are several already available they can use - which allows them to
>> spend their time being productive. I don't know of any carpenters who
>> build their own hammers.
>
> Typical employee "yes massah" philosophy.
>

Nope. It's acquiring and using the proper tools. A carpenter has
multiple types of hammers because he knows different jobs require
different tools.

> When the available tools are crap, I build my own and save time in the
> long run.
>
> No, I don't usually build my own hammers, because the morons of the
> world have golly whiz finally figured out how to make hammers.
>

That's exactly what you're doing when you build your own tools.

> I have however, on occasion, made my own drill bits.
>
> Your experience with PHP debuggers is whatever it is, that's what the OP
> asked about. I'm probably going to install xdebug and see what can be
> done with it... as for there being a decent IDE to hook up to it, I'm
> somewhat less than optimistic.
>

There are a couple of decent free IDE's which hook up to it, as well as
some paid ones.

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Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180100 is a reply to message #180097] Sat, 05 January 2013 14:52 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 1/5/2013 1:47 PM, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:
> Tim Streater <timstreater(at)greenbee(dot)net> writes:
>
>> Indeed, and no one has asserted that. The discussion has moved on to
>> whether Jerry is a clown or not.
>
> Could you then please base that discussion on some factors that at
> least *pretend* to be objective?
>

Sorry, that's impossible for trolls.

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Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
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