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Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180101 is a reply to message #180082] Sat, 05 January 2013 19:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gregor Kofler is currently offline  Gregor Kofler
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Am 2013-01-05 12:06, crankypuss meinte:

> You forgot the smiley. You must have forgotten the smiley, you couldn't
> possibly be as stupid as saying that and meaning it indicates. Next
> time remember the smiley.

Thanks for pointing out - won't happen again. Promised.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180102 is a reply to message #180097] Sun, 06 January 2013 07:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 05/01/13 18:47, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:
> Tim Streater <timstreater(at)greenbee(dot)net> writes:
>
>> Indeed, and no one has asserted that. The discussion has moved on to
>> whether Jerry is a clown or not.
>
> Could you then please base that discussion on some factors that at
> least *pretend* to be objective?
>
Well go to google archives and see if you can find even ONE example of
code provided by jerry that he has in fact written.

Those who can, do, those who cant, teach.

And criticise.

His dormant company is a training company.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180103 is a reply to message #180102] Sun, 06 January 2013 07:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anders Wegge Keller is currently offline  Anders Wegge Keller
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The Natural Philosopher <tnp(at)invalid(dot)invalid> writes:

> On 05/01/13 18:47, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:

>> Could you then please base that discussion on some factors that at
>> least *pretend* to be objective?

> Well go to google archives and see if you can find even ONE example of
> code provided by jerry that he has in fact written.

I did that once. It took me a very long time to find a post with
actual code in it. I was not impressed by the quality.

I tried to re-find it, but no luck. Instead I found an interesting
quote from Mr. Stuckle himself:

And the number of years one has been programming is not an
indication of the quality of the programmer.

I seem to recall that at other times, the opposite have been written.

> Those who can, do, those who cant, teach.
>
> And criticise.

Yep.

--
/Wegge

Leder efter redundant peering af dk.*,linux.debian.*
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180104 is a reply to message #180103] Sun, 06 January 2013 08:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 1/6/2013 7:41 AM, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp(at)invalid(dot)invalid> writes:
>
>> On 05/01/13 18:47, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:
>
>>> Could you then please base that discussion on some factors that at
>>> least *pretend* to be objective?
>
>> Well go to google archives and see if you can find even ONE example of
>> code provided by jerry that he has in fact written.
>
> I did that once. It took me a very long time to find a post with
> actual code in it. I was not impressed by the quality.
>

Didn't look very hard, did you? You must be as incompetent as TNP.


> I tried to re-find it, but no luck. Instead I found an interesting
> quote from Mr. Stuckle himself:
>
> And the number of years one has been programming is not an
> indication of the quality of the programmer.
>
> I seem to recall that at other times, the opposite have been written.
>
>> Those who can, do, those who cant, teach.
>>
>> And criticise.
>
> Yep.
>

When the shoe fits...

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180105 is a reply to message #180103] Sun, 06 January 2013 08:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 06/01/13 12:41, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp(at)invalid(dot)invalid> writes:
>
>> On 05/01/13 18:47, Anders Wegge Keller wrote:
>
>>> Could you then please base that discussion on some factors that at
>>> least *pretend* to be objective?
>
>> Well go to google archives and see if you can find even ONE example of
>> code provided by jerry that he has in fact written.
>
> I did that once. It took me a very long time to find a post with
> actual code in it. I was not impressed by the quality.
>
> I tried to re-find it, but no luck. Instead I found an interesting
> quote from Mr. Stuckle himself:
>
> And the number of years one has been programming is not an
> indication of the quality of the programmer.
>

IN his case, true. he's always been crap.


> I seem to recall that at other times, the opposite have been written.
>
>> Those who can, do, those who cant, teach.
>>
>> And criticise.
>
> Yep.
>


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180147 is a reply to message #180071] Tue, 15 January 2013 05:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arno Welzel is currently offline  Arno Welzel
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Am 04.01.2013 19:13, schrieb The Natural Philosopher:

> On 04/01/13 16:50, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
>> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:52:33 -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> On 1/4/2013 7:06 AM, bill wrote:
>>>> On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
[...]
>>>> > But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>>>> >
>>>> > /Str.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
>>>> bill
>>>
>>> Sorry, I agree. A DEVELOPER has an IDE. A hacker uses an editor.
>>
>> A real hacker redirects echo straight to a text file. (;
>>
> Its about as stupid as saying a real woodworker has a planer
> thicknesser, table router, spindle moulder and a press.
>
> And doesn't use hammers chisels and hand saws and scrapers.
>
> Yet the best musical instruments and cabinet making is all done with
> hand tools.
>
> I was writing code long before we HAD IDEs. And once you had blown the
> EAROM you had to guess at why it didn't work. Because we didn't have
> enough ICES to go round.
[...]

The had the first IDEs including source level debuggers in the late
1980s long before Windows or Linux became popular as they are today (and
when i started software development, Windows 3.1 didn't even exist) -
and yes, i really liked the opportunity to have "projects" and
debugging. Just because it is technically possible to do something
without a special tool it does not mean that using better tools is not wise.

BTW: The GNU Debugger was created in 1986.

> BECAUSE we were professionals we learnt to write code in such a way that
> the chances of a bug were very very low.
>
> Its hackers who use IDES to throw code together, and then spend the next
> day bodging it until it works, simply because they have the tools that
> make debugging easier than writing proper code in the first place.

I doubt that you ever did projects with thousands line of code from
scratch and more than one person working on the same project this way.


--
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180148 is a reply to message #180147] Tue, 15 January 2013 08:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 15/01/13 10:36, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Am 04.01.2013 19:13, schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>
>> On 04/01/13 16:50, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:52:33 -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> On 1/4/2013 7:06 AM, bill wrote:
>>>> > On 1/3/2013 8:18 AM, M. Strobel wrote:
> [...]
>>>> >> But why worry? A developer has an IDE.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> /Str.
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > I prefer HTML-Kit Tools as an editor and it is not part of an IDE.
>>>> > bill
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I agree. A DEVELOPER has an IDE. A hacker uses an editor.
>>>
>>> A real hacker redirects echo straight to a text file. (;
>>>
>> Its about as stupid as saying a real woodworker has a planer
>> thicknesser, table router, spindle moulder and a press.
>>
>> And doesn't use hammers chisels and hand saws and scrapers.
>>
>> Yet the best musical instruments and cabinet making is all done with
>> hand tools.
>>
>> I was writing code long before we HAD IDEs. And once you had blown the
>> EAROM you had to guess at why it didn't work. Because we didn't have
>> enough ICES to go round.
> [...]
>
> The had the first IDEs including source level debuggers in the late
> 1980s long before Windows or Linux became popular as they are today (and
> when i started software development, Windows 3.1 didn't even exist) -
> and yes, i really liked the opportunity to have "projects" and
> debugging. Just because it is technically possible to do something
> without a special tool it does not mean that using better tools is not
> wise.
>
> BTW: The GNU Debugger was created in 1986.
>
>> BECAUSE we were professionals we learnt to write code in such a way that
>> the chances of a bug were very very low.
>>
>> Its hackers who use IDES to throw code together, and then spend the next
>> day bodging it until it works, simply because they have the tools that
>> make debugging easier than writing proper code in the first place.
>
> I doubt that you ever did projects with thousands line of code from
> scratch and more than one person working on the same project this way.
>
>
I can assure you I did.

MOSTLy in assembler. The project managers job was to carve it out into
small chunkes that a single coder COULD handle and write the interface
specs so that the assignment of blame was self evident, and to enforce
coding standards sos that the next person along COULD understand waht
had been written. Keep it simple, don't be clever, comment clearly.

EVERY functional block HAD, on pain of being fired, to say what global
variables it used. So you could grep through the code to fouind out
which functions did that.

Every functional block HAD to explain in English, what it was supposed
to do, and comments throughout the code related to these comment block
to show which bits of the code were supposed to actually do what was
listed above.

I may these days hack with less comments, but if my code does NOT work I
go back to that style of comment. At least it reminds me weeks later
what the code is SUPPOSED to do, even if it doesn't.

I've found aids good for syntax bugs, but not for logical bugs.

A proper compiler and proper language that requires explicit
declarations of variables takes care of most of the syntax.

The logic? that you have to figure out the hard way.

But at least if the comment sasy 'check dumledore has been initialised
by Hogwarts' and the code says otherwise, you have a hint...

The trouble is PHP allows lazy coding. Type $dumbledore and its not
clear whether the variable is being assigned, set, or both. Slack typing
means that you need === as well as == and = ...

It truly is a hackers language.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180149 is a reply to message #180148] Tue, 15 January 2013 09:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arno Welzel is currently offline  Arno Welzel
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Am 15.01.2013 14:28, schrieb The Natural Philosopher:

> On 15/01/13 10:36, Arno Welzel wrote:
>> Am 04.01.2013 19:13, schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
[...]
>>> I was writing code long before we HAD IDEs. And once you had blown the
>>> EAROM you had to guess at why it didn't work. Because we didn't have
>>> enough ICES to go round.
>> [...]
>>
>> The had the first IDEs including source level debuggers in the late
>> 1980s long before Windows or Linux became popular as they are today (and
>> when i started software development, Windows 3.1 didn't even exist) -
>> and yes, i really liked the opportunity to have "projects" and
>> debugging. Just because it is technically possible to do something
>> without a special tool it does not mean that using better tools is not
>> wise.
>>
>> BTW: The GNU Debugger was created in 1986.
>>
>>> BECAUSE we were professionals we learnt to write code in such a way that
>>> the chances of a bug were very very low.
>>>
>>> Its hackers who use IDES to throw code together, and then spend the next
>>> day bodging it until it works, simply because they have the tools that
>>> make debugging easier than writing proper code in the first place.
>>
>> I doubt that you ever did projects with thousands line of code from
>> scratch and more than one person working on the same project this way.
>>
>>
> I can assure you I did.
[...]
> I may these days hack with less comments, but if my code does NOT work I
> go back to that style of comment. At least it reminds me weeks later
> what the code is SUPPOSED to do, even if it doesn't.

Using comments is still wise - even today with the most fancy IDE.

> I've found aids good for syntax bugs, but not for logical bugs.
>
> A proper compiler and proper language that requires explicit
> declarations of variables takes care of most of the syntax.
>
> The logic? that you have to figure out the hard way.

Yep - and if you use a compiler you sometimes have to deal with
"optimizations" too :-/

> But at least if the comment sasy 'check dumledore has been initialised
> by Hogwarts' and the code says otherwise, you have a hint...
>
> The trouble is PHP allows lazy coding. Type $dumbledore and its not
> clear whether the variable is being assigned, set, or both. Slack typing
> means that you need === as well as == and = ...
>
> It truly is a hackers language.

Well - this is not so surprising, since PHP was originally not created
to be a programming language but nothing more as a toolkit to create
HTML documents. If PHP would ever invent stricter rules, most existing
code would not work any longer - then most people would start to think
about alternatives to PHP anyway. So PHP has to keep this "lazy" nature
as long it exists :-/


--
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180150 is a reply to message #180149] Tue, 15 January 2013 10:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 15/01/13 14:48, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Am 15.01.2013 14:28, schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>
>> On 15/01/13 10:36, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>> Am 04.01.2013 19:13, schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
> [...]
>>>> I was writing code long before we HAD IDEs. And once you had blown the
>>>> EAROM you had to guess at why it didn't work. Because we didn't have
>>>> enough ICES to go round.
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> The had the first IDEs including source level debuggers in the late
>>> 1980s long before Windows or Linux became popular as they are today (and
>>> when i started software development, Windows 3.1 didn't even exist) -
>>> and yes, i really liked the opportunity to have "projects" and
>>> debugging. Just because it is technically possible to do something
>>> without a special tool it does not mean that using better tools is not
>>> wise.
>>>
>>> BTW: The GNU Debugger was created in 1986.
>>>
>>>> BECAUSE we were professionals we learnt to write code in such a way
>>>> that
>>>> the chances of a bug were very very low.
>>>>
>>>> Its hackers who use IDES to throw code together, and then spend the
>>>> next
>>>> day bodging it until it works, simply because they have the tools that
>>>> make debugging easier than writing proper code in the first place.
>>>
>>> I doubt that you ever did projects with thousands line of code from
>>> scratch and more than one person working on the same project this way.
>>>
>>>
>> I can assure you I did.
> [...]
>> I may these days hack with less comments, but if my code does NOT work I
>> go back to that style of comment. At least it reminds me weeks later
>> what the code is SUPPOSED to do, even if it doesn't.
>
> Using comments is still wise - even today with the most fancy IDE.
>
>> I've found aids good for syntax bugs, but not for logical bugs.
>>
>> A proper compiler and proper language that requires explicit
>> declarations of variables takes care of most of the syntax.
>>
>> The logic? that you have to figure out the hard way.
>
> Yep - and if you use a compiler you sometimes have to deal with
> "optimizations" too :-/
>

At least these days MOST of the common optimization errors have been
solved.

When I satrted in C on microp[reossors it was are to find a compiler
that COULD understand teh entire language, and mots produyced very ugly
code indeed.

My source of that period is liittered with

/* I know that any sane person wouldn't do it this way: however the
compiler is not a sane person. It's a stupid program, and this is the
only way to get it to work: feel free to spend a week improving on my
efforts */

Even then we often had to look at the assembler produced to see what
kind of spaghtetti it was turning out.

It was a lot later on that I did the same with a modern gnu C compiler
and thought 'shit that's better code than my hand written assembler: Its
really got that down pat'


>> But at least if the comment sasy 'check dumledore has been initialised
>> by Hogwarts' and the code says otherwise, you have a hint...
>>
>> The trouble is PHP allows lazy coding. Type $dumbledore and its not
>> clear whether the variable is being assigned, set, or both. Slack typing
>> means that you need === as well as == and = ...
>>
>> It truly is a hackers language.
>
> Well - this is not so surprising, since PHP was originally not created
> to be a programming language but nothing more as a toolkit to create
> HTML documents.

Which it is it has to be said, pretty good at.

If PHP would ever invent stricter rules, most existing
> code would not work any longer - then most people would start to think
> about alternatives to PHP anyway. So PHP has to keep this "lazy" nature
> as long it exists :-/
>

I am cool with that as long as it isn't dressed up to be more than it is.

If I end up with more than three pages of PHP I tend to think it's time
to pick another language.

I've recently done almost similar things in C as PHP and frankly, its
scarcely different in coding time once the makefile is set up.

And C lends itself nicely to modularity. Without the run time overhead
of included() files.

>


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180151 is a reply to message #180149] Tue, 15 January 2013 13:55 Go to previous message
Tim Streater is currently offline  Tim Streater
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In article <kd3q7v$adh$1(at)dont-email(dot)me>,
Arno Welzel <usenet(at)arnowelzel(dot)de> wrote:

> Am 15.01.2013 14:28, schrieb The Natural Philosopher:

>> It truly is a hackers language.
>
> Well - this is not so surprising, since PHP was originally not created
> to be a programming language but nothing more as a toolkit to create
> HTML documents. If PHP would ever invent stricter rules, most existing
> code would not work any longer - then most people would start to think
> about alternatives to PHP anyway. So PHP has to keep this "lazy" nature
> as long it exists :-/

Lets hope it continues that way. It is *very* fit for purpose. I use it
a lot.

--
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689
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