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Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180336 is a reply to message #180333] Tue, 05 February 2013 07:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tim Streater is currently offline  Tim Streater
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In article <5110FDFB(dot)4030601(at)arnowelzel(dot)de>,
Arno Welzel <usenet(at)arnowelzel(dot)de> wrote:

> Tim Streater, 2013-02-05 11:31:
>
>> In article <keqj7f21khr(at)news3(dot)newsguy(dot)com>,
>> crankypuss <noemail(at)noemail(dot)invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> ... Jason Betts seems to be using PHP for desktop applications but
>>> through a java front-end? And perhaps Tim Streater is doing something
>>> with it too.
>>
>> My desktop app uses JavaScript to present to the user, and PHP for
>> backend stuff such as writing to SQLite databases, communicating over
>> the net, writing log files, and other functions that the app needs. I
>> use apache/ajax to communicate between the two. As I said before -
>> heavy? Sure, but who cares.
>
> I would care if i would need all that stuff just to be able to run an
> application. It's not only about processing power or memory consumption
> - but also about security and stability. The more components you put
> together the more likely something can go wrong.

Look, here's a bar magnet and a magnifying glass. Now you can edit the
bits directly on the disk, no need for any software components at all.
Happy now?

The items I alluded to come standard with the OS. I merely make use of
them.

--
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180337 is a reply to message #180256] Tue, 05 February 2013 07:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arno Welzel is currently offline  Arno Welzel
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crankypuss, 2013-02-03 12:13:

> On 02/02/2013 03:20 PM, Keith D. Lee wrote:
>> All:
>> What about Perl?
>>
>
> Enjoy. No reason not to go back to the predecessor of PHP. That's
> where PHP came from, y'know. Some fellow whose name I don't recall
> built it to do the things Perl wasn't set up for. google "PHP history"
> there's a bit in wikipedia about it.

Ahem - no, PHP did not come from Perl.

Read the original source, not Google or Wikipedia:
<http://www.php.net/manual/en/history.php.php>

PHP took some ideas from Perl but originally PHP was just a set of CGI
tools which had nothing to do with Perl at all.


--
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180338 is a reply to message #180309] Tue, 05 February 2013 08:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arno Welzel is currently offline  Arno Welzel
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crankypuss, 2013-02-04 16:57:

> On 02/04/2013 05:23 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
>> On 2013-02-03, crankypuss <noemail(at)noemail(dot)invalid> wrote:
>>> On 02/02/2013 03:20 PM, Keith D. Lee wrote:
>>>> All:
>>>> What about Perl?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Enjoy. No reason not to go back to the predecessor of PHP. That's
>>> where PHP came from, y'know.
>>
>> php.net says some feaures were inspired by perl.
>>
>>> Some fellow whose name I don't recall
>>> built it to do the things Perl wasn't set up for. google "PHP history"
>>> there's a bit in wikipedia about it.
>>
>> That's no more "coming from perl" that what I write here is "coming
>> from Crankypuss"
>>
>
> Wikipedia, the encyclopedia anyone can edit.

I just corrected this part in Wikipedia, since none of the cited sources
refer to Perl at all - PHP was a set of binary tools written in C. They
had nothing to do with Perl at all except some ideas for the syntax for
the interpreter.


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Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180339 is a reply to message #180336] Tue, 05 February 2013 08:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arno Welzel is currently offline  Arno Welzel
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Tim Streater, 2013-02-05 13:56:

> In article <5110FDFB(dot)4030601(at)arnowelzel(dot)de>,
> Arno Welzel <usenet(at)arnowelzel(dot)de> wrote:
>
[...]
>>> My desktop app uses JavaScript to present to the user, and PHP for
>>> backend stuff such as writing to SQLite databases, communicating over
>>> the net, writing log files, and other functions that the app needs. I
>>> use apache/ajax to communicate between the two. As I said before -
>>> heavy? Sure, but who cares.
>>
>> I would care if i would need all that stuff just to be able to run an
>> application. It's not only about processing power or memory consumption
>> - but also about security and stability. The more components you put
>> together the more likely something can go wrong.
>
> Look, here's a bar magnet and a magnifying glass. Now you can edit the
> bits directly on the disk, no need for any software components at all.
> Happy now?

You don't get it or you never wrote an application which you made
available to the public.


--
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180342 is a reply to message #180335] Tue, 05 February 2013 08:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 2/5/2013 7:49 AM, Arno Welzel wrote:
> crankypuss, 2013-02-04 10:32:
>
> [...]
>> The loop is basically the same except that its "top" gets rolled around
>> to the middle and given a different name. For a desktop-app the "top"
>> is the guy hitting the enter key or clicking the mouse or whatever,
>> that's the top of the "message loop". For a web-app the browser
>> recognizes a link-click and sends an http request. It's the same thing
>> unless you get fixated on the details to the point where you can't see
>> the forest. Look an X Windows application in enough detail and you'll
>> see the same basic process with a different protocol used between the
>> client and the server. Steak or hamburger, it's all beef.
>
> If you're a hammer every problem is just a nail...
>
>

Well said, Arno!

--
==================
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JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180346 is a reply to message #180335] Tue, 05 February 2013 09:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cybe R. Wizard is currently offline  Cybe R. Wizard
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On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 13:49:55 +0100
Arno Welzel <usenet(at)arnowelzel(dot)de> wrote:

> If you're a hammer every problem is just a nail...

I heard that as, "if all you have is a hammer every job looks like a
thumb."

Cybe R. Wizard
--
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Registered Ubuntu User # 2136-deprecated
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180347 is a reply to message #180327] Tue, 05 February 2013 10:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
J G Miller is currently offline  J G Miller
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On Tuesday, February 5th, 2013, at 02:36:24h -0700, Cranky Puss explained:

> The two applications that are furthest progressed are a partition-backup
> utility and a boot-setup utility.

Thank you for the clarification in providing the details.

I rather curious as what you mean by boot-setup utility though.
Do you mean a replacement for GRUB or something that configures
grub? Or something that configures the contents of initramfs
or something that configures sysVinit/upstart/systemd?

> I'll check with google groups to see if that one's active these days

Why Google groups? You have a newsreader do you not and a quick
visit with that to alt.php shews that there are some recent posts
and discussion (not a lot but some).

> If what you really meant was "why not go away"

I have never told anybody on Usenet to go away. I may have
inferred to some "quit whining with the same stuck in the
groove needle" (because it does get tiresome after a while),
but never go away.

In fact I would suggest that those postings with contrary views
generate the most discussion, and provided that they do not
descend into flames and personal abuse, are sometimes quite
informative.

> that will doubtless happen once people stop responding to this thread.

Apart from spam and troll postings (neither of which applies to
your postings) that is the best way to kill Usenet discussion.
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180349 is a reply to message #180332] Tue, 05 February 2013 13:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crankypuss is currently offline  crankypuss
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On 02/05/2013 05:16 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 05/02/13 09:22, crankypuss wrote:
>> On 02/04/2013 09:35 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 04/02/13 16:15, crankypuss wrote:
>>>> > On 02/04/2013 09:06 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > <mostly, snipped>
>>>> >
>>>> >> To emulate what happens in the desktop environment on the web is
>>>> >> not so
>>>> >> easy.
>>>> >
>>>> > The world is in a sad state when people prefer code that was written
>>>> > easy over code that was written right.
>>>>
>>>> well there you go. You had better start from scratch and design your
>>>> own
>>>> hardware then. And your own language and your own operating system.
>>>>
>>>> Engineering is never about Getting Things Right: only mathematicians
>>>> have that luxury. For people in the Real World (TM) its a question of
>>>> getting things good enough for purpose, by the shortest and least hard
>>>> route.
>>>>
>>>> If that means engineering a 1501cc engine in, instead of 1500cc,
>>>> because
>>>> the difficulties of achieving the prefect Roundness of Wheels is
>>>> absolute, then that's what we do.
>>>>
>>>> PHP is that route for simple web based apps. For anything else its
>>>> largely not that useful.
>>>>
>>>> Accept it, and move on..
>>>>
>>>
>>> IOW the right tool for the right job.
>>>
>>
>> PHP is hardly "the right tool" for any job, but it can be used for more
>> than simple web based apps.
>
> "With additional hardware and software, you *can* use an Apple II to
> send a man to the moon"
>

You know, regardless of my 'nym, I try to get along with folks. You
however seem to be the type of fellow that makes my teeth grind, the
type that just does what he's told and tells others to do the same, the
type of person who would, given his druthers, impede all progress in
order to maintain the position his ego tells him he holds. You and all
the others like you who just take whatever happens to be on the shelf
and use it as best they can to write the best software they can, which
usually happens to be garbage because they're basing it on garbage,
well, you are obsolete imo.


"All the Linux community wants is to create a really good,
fully-featured, free operating system. If that results in Linux becoming
a hugely popular OS, then that's great. If that results in Linux having
the most intuitive, user-friendly interface ever created, then that's
great. If that results in Linux becoming the basis of a multi-billion
dollar industry, then that's great.

It's great, but it's not the point. The point is to make Linux the best
OS that the community is capable of making. Not for other people: For
itself."
http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180350 is a reply to message #180331] Tue, 05 February 2013 13:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crankypuss is currently offline  crankypuss
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On 02/05/2013 05:15 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> I know. I've employed both. The one I sacked was a computer scientist.

Well you're really hot shit, fucktard; I retired out from under a bunch
of morons just like you who are still contributing their portion of shit
to the world toilet while I am off building the software that I see a
need for. Keep on doing what you're told with the tools you're told to
use, it's all you're barely capable of.
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180351 is a reply to message #180347] Tue, 05 February 2013 14:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crankypuss is currently offline  crankypuss
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On 02/05/2013 08:03 AM, J G Miller wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 5th, 2013, at 02:36:24h -0700, Cranky Puss explained:
>
>> The two applications that are furthest progressed are a partition-backup
>> utility and a boot-setup utility.
>
> Thank you for the clarification in providing the details.
>
> I rather curious as what you mean by boot-setup utility though.
> Do you mean a replacement for GRUB or something that configures
> grub? Or something that configures the contents of initramfs
> or something that configures sysVinit/upstart/systemd?

There used to be a tool called "grub-customizer". I started using it a
year or so ago. A few months back it seemed to go down the tubes. It
added support for burg and basically turned into a random-config-generator.

What I'm building is a replacement for it, something more general and
somewhat simpler. Currently it only supports grub-2 to a limited
extent, it doesn't yet allow specification of most of the available
parameters, but it does generate a working config which is more than I
can say for grub-customizer when I uninstalled it. Eventually it's
likely to support grub-legacy and maybe lilo and whatever, there's no
conceptual reason that can't be done. It just flat ignores whatever
happens to be in /etc/grub.d/ and builds a /boot/grub/grub.cfg file from
your specifications; it saves the abstracted information about the boot
setup in an xml file in root so you don't have to specify everything
every time. I've been using it for a couple months now and it does the
job; when you run it, it brings up a list of all your bootable
partitions, and lets you walk through a few menus to specify your boot
config. Those who are happy dicking around with /etc/grub.d/ probably
wouldn't like it at all, but it does leave /etc/grub.d/ in whatever
shambles it was in before it was used.
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180352 is a reply to message #180333] Tue, 05 February 2013 14:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crankypuss is currently offline  crankypuss
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On 02/05/2013 05:41 AM, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Tim Streater, 2013-02-05 11:31:
>
>> In article <keqj7f21khr(at)news3(dot)newsguy(dot)com>,
>> crankypuss <noemail(at)noemail(dot)invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> ... Jason Betts seems to be using PHP for desktop applications but
>>> through a java front-end? And perhaps Tim Streater is doing something
>>> with it too.
>>
>> My desktop app uses JavaScript to present to the user, and PHP for
>> backend stuff such as writing to SQLite databases, communicating over
>> the net, writing log files, and other functions that the app needs. I
>> use apache/ajax to communicate between the two. As I said before -
>> heavy? Sure, but who cares.
>
> I would care if i would need all that stuff just to be able to run an
> application. It's not only about processing power or memory consumption
> - but also about security and stability. The more components you put
> together the more likely something can go wrong.

If you're using other people's components that's basically true, though
the likelihood of a problem doesn't increase in direct proportion to the
number of "foreign" components you're using but in relation to their
quality... which of course is guesswork unless it's something like Adobe
Flash which you can pretty much bet is messed up somehow.
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180353 is a reply to message #180339] Tue, 05 February 2013 14:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crankypuss is currently offline  crankypuss
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On 02/05/2013 06:08 AM, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Tim Streater, 2013-02-05 13:56:
>
>> In article <5110FDFB(dot)4030601(at)arnowelzel(dot)de>,
>> Arno Welzel <usenet(at)arnowelzel(dot)de> wrote:
>>
> [...]
>>>> My desktop app uses JavaScript to present to the user, and PHP for
>>>> backend stuff such as writing to SQLite databases, communicating over
>>>> the net, writing log files, and other functions that the app needs. I
>>>> use apache/ajax to communicate between the two. As I said before -
>>>> heavy? Sure, but who cares.
>>>
>>> I would care if i would need all that stuff just to be able to run an
>>> application. It's not only about processing power or memory consumption
>>> - but also about security and stability. The more components you put
>>> together the more likely something can go wrong.
>>
>> Look, here's a bar magnet and a magnifying glass. Now you can edit the
>> bits directly on the disk, no need for any software components at all.
>> Happy now?
>
> You don't get it or you never wrote an application which you made
> available to the public.
>

I used to make some stuff available to others, and I've used more cuss
words on other people's components than anything else... for that matter
I've yet to find an operating system that I can really trust over the
long haul, application code keeps having to implement workaround after
workaround to counteract changes in successive releases. I remember
some gawdawful conditional assembler code to make some stuff that should
have been pretty simple just keep working as the system interfaces
shifted around under it like jello.

Sometimes I think "what the world needs" (or at least, what I'd like to
have a copy of) is a Linux distro called LCDlinux (for Lowest Common
Denominator) so an LCD could actually be *established* and then improved
at the system level. (And no, its name ain't "slackware" as far as I
can tell.) I don't think I've seen a really clean set of system
interfaces since CP/M or maybe OS/360, "modern" interfaces seem designed
to make it easy for system developers, or perhaps tg maximize the amount
of hoop-jumping on the part of application developers.

Meanwhile the idea of distributing any of my PHP applications gives me
the shudders because of the dozens of includes and hundreds of
subroutines all needing to be in the right directories and so forth.
One of these days I'll go back and rework some parsing code I built
while doing web-apps and use it to collect all the subroutines into a
single file, or better yet gzip them and embed the compressed source in
a tweaked-up copy of the PHP interpreter so that an application consists
of one binary file.

Sometimes I would damn near take the bar magnet and magnifying glass
just so I'd have something to work with that could actually be counted
on, when you key the program in through the dip-switches at least you
know what you have.
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180354 is a reply to message #180334] Tue, 05 February 2013 14:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crankypuss is currently offline  crankypuss
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On 02/05/2013 05:42 AM, Arno Welzel wrote:
> crankypuss, 2013-02-04 10:55:
>
>> On 02/04/2013 12:38 AM, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>> crankypuss, 2013-02-02 21:27:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>> Is there a forum where the other folks (presuming there are any) who
>>>> have been writing applications in PHP hang out? Don't say "yeah dummy,
>>>> go to comp.lang.python" please, my homor quotient is maxed out for
>>>> today. <g>
>>>
>>> Maybe <http://gtk.php.net/> is what you are looking for.
>>>
>>> But this is still very limited - i recommend to learn C++ and how to use
>>> Qt. See <http://qt-project.org/downloads>.
>>>
>>> Qt also provides "Qt Creator" - a nice IDE including GUI designer,
>>> debugger etc.. (see
>>> <http://qt-project.org/wiki/Category:Tools::QtCreator>).
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Go to a line-mode login and try to run one of your Qt applications.
>
> < http://doc.qt.digia.com/solutions/4/qtsingleapplication/qtsinglecoreapplica tion-example-console.html>
>
>

Thanks for the link. It's potentially interesting, but the OOP obscura
kind of hides what it's doing. Presumably you've run it on a line-mode
console? What level of support does it provide, is it character mode or
pixel mode? What are they using for their interface to the display?
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180358 is a reply to message #180353] Tue, 05 February 2013 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
J G Miller is currently offline  J G Miller
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On Tuesday, February 5th, 2013, at 12:24:38h -0700, Cranky Puss complained:

> I've yet to find an operating system that I can really trust over the
> long haul

I keep mentioning OpenBSD to you, but have you looked at it?

<http://www.openbsd.ORG/>

If one cannot trust FreeBSD, what can one trust?

See in particular

<http://www.openbsd.ORG/goals.html>
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180359 is a reply to message #180351] Tue, 05 February 2013 15:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
J G Miller is currently offline  J G Miller
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On Tuesday, February 5th, 2013, at 12:07:47h -0700, Cranky Puss explained:

> Currently it only supports grub-2 to a limited extent, it doesn't yet
> allow specification of most of the available parameters, but it does
> generate a working config which is more than I can say for grub-customizer
> when I uninstalled it.

Okay I follow, but does it successfully auto probe for all the different
OSes which may be present on all of the different file systems?

> but it does leave /etc/grub.d/ in whatever shambles it was in before
> it was used.

grub.d is certainly an abomination and each distribution makes it worse,
notably the chain debian -> ubuntu -> mint

Want to add another item, then the config script has to tail itself
on to the configuration, eg my just added plop_40

#!/bin/sh

exec tail -n +4 $0

menuentry "Plop Boot Manager" {
set root=(hd0,6)
linux16 /plop-boot-image
}
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180360 is a reply to message #180349] Tue, 05 February 2013 16:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 05/02/13 18:49, crankypuss wrote:
> On 02/05/2013 05:16 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 05/02/13 09:22, crankypuss wrote:
>>> On 02/04/2013 09:35 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> > On 04/02/13 16:15, crankypuss wrote:
>>>> >> On 02/04/2013 09:06 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> <mostly, snipped>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> To emulate what happens in the desktop environment on the web is
>>>> >>> not so
>>>> >>> easy.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The world is in a sad state when people prefer code that was written
>>>> >> easy over code that was written right.
>>>> >
>>>> > well there you go. You had better start from scratch and design your
>>>> > own
>>>> > hardware then. And your own language and your own operating system.
>>>> >
>>>> > Engineering is never about Getting Things Right: only mathematicians
>>>> > have that luxury. For people in the Real World (TM) its a question of
>>>> > getting things good enough for purpose, by the shortest and least hard
>>>> > route.
>>>> >
>>>> > If that means engineering a 1501cc engine in, instead of 1500cc,
>>>> > because
>>>> > the difficulties of achieving the prefect Roundness of Wheels is
>>>> > absolute, then that's what we do.
>>>> >
>>>> > PHP is that route for simple web based apps. For anything else its
>>>> > largely not that useful.
>>>> >
>>>> > Accept it, and move on..
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> IOW the right tool for the right job.
>>>>
>>>
>>> PHP is hardly "the right tool" for any job, but it can be used for more
>>> than simple web based apps.
>>
>> "With additional hardware and software, you *can* use an Apple II to
>> send a man to the moon"
>>
>
> You know, regardless of my 'nym, I try to get along with folks. You
> however seem to be the type of fellow that makes my teeth grind, the
> type that just does what he's told and tells others to do the same, the
> type of person who would, given his druthers, impede all progress in
> order to maintain the position his ego tells him he holds. You and all
> the others like you who just take whatever happens to be on the shelf
> and use it as best they can to write the best software they can, which
> usually happens to be garbage because they're basing it on garbage,
> well, you are obsolete imo.
>

No, I am just a person who had to produce results to acceptable costs in
acceptable timescales.

Something they don't teach computer scientists.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180361 is a reply to message #180350] Tue, 05 February 2013 16:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 05/02/13 18:52, crankypuss wrote:
> On 02/05/2013 05:15 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> I know. I've employed both. The one I sacked was a computer scientist.
>
> Well you're really hot shit, fucktard; I retired out from under a bunch
> of morons just like you who are still contributing their portion of shit
> to the world toilet while I am off building the software that I see a
> need for. Keep on doing what you're told with the tools you're told to
> use, it's all you're barely capable of.

No one tells me what tools to use.

I have the luxury of being able to choose the ones that suit the job to
be done.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180362 is a reply to message #180326] Tue, 05 February 2013 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jasen Betts is currently offline  Jasen Betts
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On 2013-02-05, crankypuss <noemail(at)noemail(dot)invalid> wrote:
>> where they're discussing it.
>>
>> So far the answer is "no, we're using stuff we think is easier" with the
>> possibility that M. Strobel is also engaged in this bizarre activity
>> (though he didn't say yea or nay but commented on its applicability).
>
> ... Jason Betts seems to be using PHP for desktop applications but
> through a java front-end? And perhaps Tim Streater is doing something
> with it too.
>
> Not a whole huge mob of folks. <g>

Nah, it's all C and and a little javascript at the client end.

I php for websites, and Im starting to regret it.

--
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Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180364 is a reply to message #180351] Tue, 05 February 2013 17:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jasen Betts is currently offline  Jasen Betts
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On 2013-02-05, crankypuss <noemail(at)noemail(dot)invalid> wrote:

> What I'm building is a replacement for it, something more general and
> somewhat simpler. Currently it only supports grub-2 to a limited
> extent, it doesn't yet allow specification of most of the available
> parameters, but it does generate a working config which is more than I
> can say for grub-customizer when I uninstalled it. Eventually it's
> likely to support grub-legacy and maybe lilo and whatever, there's no
> conceptual reason that can't be done. It just flat ignores whatever
> happens to be in /etc/grub.d/ and builds a /boot/grub/grub.cfg file from
> your specifications; it saves the abstracted information about the boot
> setup in an xml file in root so you don't have to specify everything
> every time. I've been using it for a couple months now and it does the
> job; when you run it, it brings up a list of all your bootable
> partitions, and lets you walk through a few menus to specify your boot
> config. Those who are happy dicking around with /etc/grub.d/ probably
> wouldn't like it at all, but it does leave /etc/grub.d/ in whatever
> shambles it was in before it was used.

I think /etc/grub.d is what lets me install memtest86 without editing
any config files, it's purpose is to allow pluggable componets without
groping through config files. a task it achieves well. possibly it's a
debian thing

they did the same to init, cron, logrotate, exim, apache ...

trying to fight it is probably going to be counter-productive

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Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180365 is a reply to message #180359] Tue, 05 February 2013 17:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jasen Betts is currently offline  Jasen Betts
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On 2013-02-05, J G Miller <miller(at)yoyo(dot)ORG> wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 5th, 2013, at 12:07:47h -0700, Cranky Puss explained:
>
>> Currently it only supports grub-2 to a limited extent, it doesn't yet
>> allow specification of most of the available parameters, but it does
>> generate a working config which is more than I can say for grub-customizer
>> when I uninstalled it.
>
> Okay I follow, but does it successfully auto probe for all the different
> OSes which may be present on all of the different file systems?
>
>> but it does leave /etc/grub.d/ in whatever shambles it was in before
>> it was used.
>
> grub.d is certainly an abomination and each distribution makes it worse,
> notably the chain debian -> ubuntu -> mint
>
> Want to add another item, then the config script has to tail itself
> on to the configuration, eg my just added plop_40
>
> #!/bin/sh
>
> exec tail -n +4 $0
>
> menuentry "Plop Boot Manager" {
> set root=(hd0,6)
> linux16 /plop-boot-image
> }
>

I think the idea is to make packaging stuff easier.
by making the fragments executable they allow maximum compile-time
capability without much work.

if you're happy to write a customised configuation file after
installing the software then grub.d isn't for you, if on the other
hand you just want it to work it's a neat invention.



--
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Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180366 is a reply to message #180362] Tue, 05 February 2013 17:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 05/02/13 21:51, Jasen Betts wrote:
> On 2013-02-05, crankypuss <noemail(at)noemail(dot)invalid> wrote:
>>> where they're discussing it.
>>>
>>> So far the answer is "no, we're using stuff we think is easier" with the
>>> possibility that M. Strobel is also engaged in this bizarre activity
>>> (though he didn't say yea or nay but commented on its applicability).
>>
>> ... Jason Betts seems to be using PHP for desktop applications but
>> through a java front-end? And perhaps Tim Streater is doing something
>> with it too.
>>
>> Not a whole huge mob of folks. <g>
>
> Nah, it's all C and and a little javascript at the client end.
>
> I php for websites, and Im starting to regret it.
>
yeah..i use it to fast code some simple stuff but whenever I try and do
anything complex, it starts to look messy.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180370 is a reply to message #180364] Tue, 05 February 2013 18:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Richard Kettlewell is currently offline  Richard Kettlewell
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Jasen Betts <jasen(at)xnet(dot)co(dot)nz> writes:
> I think /etc/grub.d is what lets me install memtest86 without editing
> any config files, it's purpose is to allow pluggable componets without
> groping through config files. a task it achieves well. possibly it's a
> debian thing

grub-mkconfig is an upstream feature.

--
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Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180371 is a reply to message #180365] Tue, 05 February 2013 19:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
J G Miller is currently offline  J G Miller
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On Tuesday, February 5th, 2013, at 22:27:59h +0000,
Jasen Betts wrote:

> I think the idea is to make packaging stuff easier.

Well that is probably the priority of most packagers ;)

> if you're happy to write a customised configuation file after
> installing the software then grub.d isn't for you

That is no doubt the reason why I dislike grub.d so much.

> if on the other hand you just want it to work it's a neat invention.

But as corrupted by ubuntu and then even more so by mint, it just
produces a white text on black grub screen and life is made so
more difficult in trying to just display a background image.

Notwithstanding, the os-prober bit is, as you say, good because
it just works.
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180372 is a reply to message #180353] Wed, 06 February 2013 00:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Aragorn is currently offline  Aragorn
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On Tuesday 05 February 2013 20:24, crankypuss conveyed the following to
alt.os.linux...

> [...]
>
> Sometimes I think "what the world needs" (or at least, what I'd like
> to have a copy of) is a Linux distro called LCDlinux (for Lowest
> Common Denominator) so an LCD could actually be *established* and then
> improved at the system level. (And no, its name ain't "slackware" as
> far as I can tell.) I don't think I've seen a really clean set of
> system interfaces since CP/M or maybe OS/360, "modern" interfaces seem
> designed to make it easy for system developers, or perhaps tg maximize
> the amount of hoop-jumping on the part of application developers.

Considering that you've already accepted that this hypothetical
operating system would be based upon GNU/Linux, have you already looked
into Source Mage? It lets you build your own distribution from sources
- Gentoo also allows for that, but the process is more convoluted there.

http://www.sourcemage.org/

--
= Aragorn =
(registered GNU/Linux user #223157)
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180374 is a reply to message #180359] Wed, 06 February 2013 06:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crankypuss is currently offline  crankypuss
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On 02/05/2013 01:22 PM, J G Miller wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 5th, 2013, at 12:07:47h -0700, Cranky Puss explained:
>
>> Currently it only supports grub-2 to a limited extent, it doesn't yet
>> allow specification of most of the available parameters, but it does
>> generate a working config which is more than I can say for grub-customizer
>> when I uninstalled it.
>
> Okay I follow, but does it successfully auto probe for all the different
> OSes which may be present on all of the different file systems?

Probably not, I don't even know what "all the different OSes" are. It
finds Ubuntu (the only distro I have tested it with so far) and would
probably find any linux distro since those checks are fairly basic
(though who knows what is out there), it finds Windows Vista, and
Windows XP. That's all it's been tested with.

As a philosophical aside, it seems to be a need to support everything
that contributes most heavily to nothing's being supported very well.

>> but it does leave /etc/grub.d/ in whatever shambles it was in before
>> it was used.
>
> grub.d is certainly an abomination and each distribution makes it worse,
> notably the chain debian -> ubuntu -> mint
>
> Want to add another item, then the config script has to tail itself
> on to the configuration, eg my just added plop_40
>
> #!/bin/sh
>
> exec tail -n +4 $0
>
> menuentry "Plop Boot Manager" {
> set root=(hd0,6)
> linux16 /plop-boot-image
> }
>
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180375 is a reply to message #180365] Wed, 06 February 2013 06:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crankypuss is currently offline  crankypuss
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On 02/05/2013 03:27 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
> On 2013-02-05, J G Miller <miller(at)yoyo(dot)ORG> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 5th, 2013, at 12:07:47h -0700, Cranky Puss explained:
>>
>>> Currently it only supports grub-2 to a limited extent, it doesn't yet
>>> allow specification of most of the available parameters, but it does
>>> generate a working config which is more than I can say for grub-customizer
>>> when I uninstalled it.
>>
>> Okay I follow, but does it successfully auto probe for all the different
>> OSes which may be present on all of the different file systems?
>>
>>> but it does leave /etc/grub.d/ in whatever shambles it was in before
>>> it was used.
>>
>> grub.d is certainly an abomination and each distribution makes it worse,
>> notably the chain debian -> ubuntu -> mint
>>
>> Want to add another item, then the config script has to tail itself
>> on to the configuration, eg my just added plop_40
>>
>> #!/bin/sh
>>
>> exec tail -n +4 $0
>>
>> menuentry "Plop Boot Manager" {
>> set root=(hd0,6)
>> linux16 /plop-boot-image
>> }
>>
>
> I think the idea is to make packaging stuff easier.
> by making the fragments executable they allow maximum compile-time
> capability without much work.

Avoiding work can be done in a number of ways, such as putting the work
in library or utility package so it can be reused---you do more work now
and avoid lots later. Avoiding it by putting it in batch files for
other people to deal with seems kind of self-defeating... by doing that
you've invented an unparsable form for storing critical information. In
the case of grub2 people are basically stuck with editing it by hand
forever.

> if you're happy to write a customised configuation file after
> installing the software then grub.d isn't for you, if on the other
> hand you just want it to work it's a neat invention.

I have never found it to "just work" since about the first time I
installed Ubuntu. Kernel updates and post-processing to update grub
seems prone to breaking those critical links in root.

What I did find was that I could get it to work by carefully
hand-editing the obscured information in the /etc/grub.d/ scripts, but I
got tired of cutting and pasting uuid's every time the thing decided to
probe reality and rewrite proxified scripts, and took a different approach.

Not everybody wants the same thing.
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180376 is a reply to message #180375] Wed, 06 February 2013 06:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Richard Kettlewell is currently offline  Richard Kettlewell
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crankypuss <noemail(at)noemail(dot)invalid> writes:
> Jasen Betts wrote:

>> if you're happy to write a customised configuation file after
>> installing the software then grub.d isn't for you, if on the other
>> hand you just want it to work it's a neat invention.
>
> I have never found it to "just work" since about the first time I
> installed Ubuntu. Kernel updates and post-processing to update grub
> seems prone to breaking those critical links in root.

Grub has nothing to do with their maintenance. TTBOMK they’re only
required if you have a boot loader that depends on them, which doesn’t
include Grub.

--
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Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180380 is a reply to message #180359] Wed, 06 February 2013 10:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
J G Miller is currently offline  J G Miller
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On Tuesday, February 5th, 2013, at 20:22:54h +0000, J G Miller wrote:

> Want to add another item, then the config script has to tail itself
> on to the configuration, eg my just added plop_40

Incidentally, if anybody is wondering why on earth anybody would want
to add a closed source boot loader on to the GRUB menu, the answer is
to be able to go into PLOP to boot a USB device, especially on a PC whose
BIOS does not support booting USB devices.

And for those PCs who do support direct booting from USB devices, this
arrangement is also needed if one does not want to go into the BIOS
to change the device boot order settings and not to automagically try
any USB disk which may happen to have been left plugged in at boot time.
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180381 is a reply to message #180326] Tue, 05 February 2013 11:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Meeh is currently offline  Meeh
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On 2013-02-05 09:26:06 +0000, crankypuss said:

> On 02/04/2013 09:08 AM, crankypuss wrote:
>> On 02/04/2013 02:29 AM, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>> Am 04.02.2013 10:04, schrieb Tim Streater:
>>>
>>>> In article <510F6570(dot)8060103(at)arnowelzel(dot)de>,
>>>> Arno Welzel <usenet(at)arnowelzel(dot)de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > crankypuss, 2013-02-02 21:27:
>>>> >
>>>> > [...]
>>>> >> Is there a forum where the other folks (presuming there are any) who
>>>> >> have been writing applications in PHP hang out? Don't say "yeah
>>>> > dummy,
>>>> >> go to comp.lang.python" please, my homor quotient is maxed out for
>>>> >> today. <g>
>>>> >
>>>> > Maybe <http://gtk.php.net/> is what you are looking for.
>>>>
>>>> Website hasn't been updated for three years.
>>>
>>> I know - but this is everything i'm aware of for building "standalone"
>>> applications with a GUI. If you can recommend something better - feel
>>> free to do so. Maybe the OP will understand, why using PHP for this
>>> purpose is not the best idea ;-)
>>
>> Sometimes it's hard for me to grasp the idea that most people just use
>> whatever is sitting on the shelf and would never consider the idea of
>> building something else; usually it's at least as difficult for them to
>> grasp the idea that for me applications are not half as interesting as
>> the tools that enable them. See, I don't *care* what's available this
>> week for writing standalone apps under PHP, what I mostly care about is
>> what the underlying operating system will support reliably and what the
>> PHP language itself is capable of.
>>
>> The original post didn't ask for someone to help a poor weenie build
>> desktop applications in PHP, it asked who else is writing Linux or
>> cross-system applications in PHP, with perhaps some hope of finding out
>> where they're discussing it.
>>
>> So far the answer is "no, we're using stuff we think is easier" with the
>> possibility that M. Strobel is also engaged in this bizarre activity
>> (though he didn't say yea or nay but commented on its applicability).
>
> ... Jason Betts seems to be using PHP for desktop applications but
> through a java front-end? And perhaps Tim Streater is doing something
> with it too.
>
> Not a whole huge mob of folks. <g>


I would suggest using python. I programmed php for 5 years now, and
after I learned python, I don't use php for other than web
programming.. python works great with GUI too.. IIRC it has gtk, qt and
wx support.

java also works, but can maybe be a bit complicated.


--
Regards,
Meeh
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180382 is a reply to message #180353] Wed, 06 February 2013 20:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DanS is currently offline  DanS
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On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 12:24:38 -0700, crankypuss wrote:

> On 02/05/2013 06:08 AM, Arno Welzel wrote:
>> Tim Streater, 2013-02-05 13:56:
>>
>>> In article <5110FDFB(dot)4030601(at)arnowelzel(dot)de>,
>>> Arno Welzel <usenet(at)arnowelzel(dot)de> wrote:
>>>
>> [...]
>>>> > My desktop app uses JavaScript to present to the user, and PHP for
>>>> > backend stuff such as writing to SQLite databases, communicating
>>>> > over the net, writing log files, and other functions that the app
>>>> > needs. I use apache/ajax to communicate between the two. As I said
>>>> > before - heavy? Sure, but who cares.
>>>>
>>>> I would care if i would need all that stuff just to be able to run an
>>>> application. It's not only about processing power or memory
>>>> consumption - but also about security and stability. The more
>>>> components you put together the more likely something can go wrong.
>>>
>>> Look, here's a bar magnet and a magnifying glass. Now you can edit the
>>> bits directly on the disk, no need for any software components at all.
>>> Happy now?
>>
>> You don't get it or you never wrote an application which you made
>> available to the public.
>>
>>
> I used to make some stuff available to others, and I've used more cuss
> words on other people's components than anything else... for that matter
> I've yet to find an operating system that I can really trust over the
> long haul, application code keeps having to implement workaround after
> workaround to counteract changes in successive releases. I remember
> some gawdawful conditional assembler code to make some stuff that should
> have been pretty simple just keep working as the system interfaces
> shifted around under it like jello.
>
> Sometimes I think "what the world needs" (or at least, what I'd like to
> have a copy of) is a Linux distro called LCDlinux (for Lowest Common
> Denominator) so an LCD could actually be *established* and then improved
> at the system level.

There already *is* such a thing, and it's not called LCD, it's called LSB,
and has been mentioned here multiple times in the past:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Standard_Base>

mike keeps talking about this concept, and mechanic keeps talking about
this concept, and T i m keeps talking about this concept, and I've talked
about this concept, and all the vocal Linux users make fun of it and call
it "the Win-droid way".

The problem is, it seems as though there's not enough interest in
achieving that goal, as some have literally said they couldn't care less
about standards and they'll just go ahead with whatever they want to
implement regardless of whether or not it breaks compatibilities.

That's what FOSS is all about.....you don't like the direction some app
or [whatever] is going, so you fork it off and start your own. It's an
ego thing, "it's my way or the highway", and if you don't like it, "I'm
taking my ball and going home", er, "copying the ball and going home."

Only one app may survive, maybe neither, or both, but then you divide the
userbase also, so each app has less users.
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180383 is a reply to message #180382] Wed, 06 February 2013 23:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cybe R. Wizard is currently offline  Cybe R. Wizard
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On Wed, 06 Feb 2013 19:48:34 -0600
DanS <t(dot)h(dot)i(dot)s(dot)n(dot)t(dot)h(dot)a(dot)t(at)r(dot)o(dot)a(dot)d(dot)r(dot)u(dot)n(dot)n(dot)e(dot)r(dot)c(dot)o(dot)m> wrote:

> The problem is, it seems as though there's not enough interest in
> achieving that goal, as some have literally said they couldn't care
> less about standards and they'll just go ahead with whatever they
> want to implement regardless of whether or not it breaks
> compatibilities.

Ah, yes. That's recognizably Microsoft, isn't it?

Cybe R. Wizard
--
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Registered Ubuntu User # 2136-deprecated
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180384 is a reply to message #180383] Thu, 07 February 2013 00:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GooseMan is currently offline  GooseMan
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On Wed, 6 Feb 2013 22:44:40 -0600, "Cybe R. Wizard"
<cybe_r_wizard@wizardstower> wrote:

> On Wed, 06 Feb 2013 19:48:34 -0600
> DanS <t(dot)h(dot)i(dot)s(dot)n(dot)t(dot)h(dot)a(dot)t(at)r(dot)o(dot)a(dot)d(dot)r(dot)u(dot)n(dot)n(dot)e(dot)r(dot)c(dot)o(dot)m> wrote:
>
>> The problem is, it seems as though there's not enough interest in
>> achieving that goal, as some have literally said they couldn't care
>> less about standards and they'll just go ahead with whatever they
>> want to implement regardless of whether or not it breaks
>> compatibilities.
>
> Ah, yes. That's recognizably Microsoft, isn't it?
>
> Cybe R. Wizard


Didn't *he* just break a standard? :-p
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180392 is a reply to message #180383] Thu, 07 February 2013 09:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arno Welzel is currently offline  Arno Welzel
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Am 07.02.2013 05:44, schrieb Cybe R. Wizard:

> On Wed, 06 Feb 2013 19:48:34 -0600
> DanS <t(dot)h(dot)i(dot)s(dot)n(dot)t(dot)h(dot)a(dot)t(at)r(dot)o(dot)a(dot)d(dot)r(dot)u(dot)n(dot)n(dot)e(dot)r(dot)c(dot)o(dot)m> wrote:
>
>> The problem is, it seems as though there's not enough interest in
>> achieving that goal, as some have literally said they couldn't care
>> less about standards and they'll just go ahead with whatever they
>> want to implement regardless of whether or not it breaks
>> compatibilities.
>
> Ah, yes. That's recognizably Microsoft, isn't it?

Not really - Microsoft supports many of their own very old proprietary
"standards" in Windows 7. Just have a look how many compatibility hacks
they provide, just to keep old stuff running. Only 16-bit code will not
be supported any longer in 64-bit-version. But you still can run a lot
of old stuff from Window 3.1 or Windows 95 in Windows 7.


--
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de
Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180397 is a reply to message #180354] Sat, 09 February 2013 14:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arno Welzel is currently offline  Arno Welzel
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crankypuss, 2013-02-05 20:28:

> On 02/05/2013 05:42 AM, Arno Welzel wrote:
>> crankypuss, 2013-02-04 10:55:
[...]
>>> Go to a line-mode login and try to run one of your Qt applications.
>>
>> < http://doc.qt.digia.com/solutions/4/qtsingleapplication/qtsinglecoreapplica tion-example-console.html>
>
> Thanks for the link. It's potentially interesting, but the OOP obscura
> kind of hides what it's doing. Presumably you've run it on a line-mode
> console? What level of support does it provide, is it character mode or
> pixel mode? What are they using for their interface to the display?

What is "pixel mode"? What exactly do you mean with "level of support"?

It's a *console* application and of course it will just output *text* to
stdout.


--
Arno Welzel
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Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180401 is a reply to message #180383] Sun, 10 February 2013 09:09 Go to previous message
DanS is currently offline  DanS
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On Wed, 06 Feb 2013 22:44:40 -0600, Cybe R. Wizard wrote:

> On Wed, 06 Feb 2013 19:48:34 -0600 DanS
> <t(dot)h(dot)i(dot)s(dot)n(dot)t(dot)h(dot)a(dot)t(at)r(dot)o(dot)a(dot)d(dot)r(dot)u(dot)n(dot)n(dot)e(dot)r(dot)c(dot)o(dot)m> wrote:
>
>> The problem is, it seems as though there's not enough interest in
>> achieving that goal, as some have literally said they couldn't care
>> less about standards and they'll just go ahead with whatever they want
>> to implement regardless of whether or not it breaks compatibilities.
>
> Ah, yes. That's recognizably Microsoft, isn't it?

(*IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS DISCUSSION*) Is it?

Who else authors OSs that are based on Windows and are supposed to be
binary compatible with it, but have compatibility issues?
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