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Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181471 is a reply to message #181464] Sat, 18 May 2013 09:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 18/05/13 13:00, Norman Peelman wrote:
>
>> A real name consists of first *and* last name; it belongs in the From
>> header
>> field value first, and you are evading the issue of your misconception.
>>
>
> ...sorry, I was not aware there were so many rules. I have yet to see
> an e-mail/news-reader client that explains them while setting up a
> Usenet account.
>
There are no rules. There is accepted custom and practice and personal
decisions toted as standards, by the likes of pointy rears.

There are very very good reasons to remain casually anonymous on Usenet.
If you stray into any areas that arouse strong passions.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181472 is a reply to message #181470] Sat, 18 May 2013 10:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 5/18/2013 8:51 AM, Christoph Becker wrote:
> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> No, but since it is unrelated to the OP's problem, it's nothing more
>> than thread hijacking - something Pointed Head is well known for, as I
>> said before.
>>
>> If Pointed Head wanted to bring it up, he should have started a new
>> thread. Or, better yet, reported it on the PHP bugs database, since
>> none of the PHP developers pay attention to this newsgroup.
>
> Does it really matter if the issue is pointed out in this thread or in a
> new thread with the subject "bug in is_numeric"? And does it matter who
> files a respective bug report? After all, we all benefit from being PHP
> as bug free/clearly documented as possible.
>

Yes, it does. People looking through threads will not find this problem
if they look at the first couple of posts. And people looking at the
first couple of posts will have to sort through a huge amount of garbage
to figure out most of what is here is completely unrelated to the
original subject.

Usenet has threads for a reason. And this is a perfect example why.
Maybe if Pointed Head weren't so caught up in criticizing everyone else
for what he perceives as egracious errors (like not using their real
name in their header) he could figure out how not to hijack others' threads.


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Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181473 is a reply to message #181464] Sat, 18 May 2013 10:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas 'PointedEars'  is currently offline  Thomas 'PointedEars'
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Norman Peelman wrote:

> On 05/18/2013 04:28 AM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
>> SwissCheese wrote:
>>> On 05/16/2013 06:33 PM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
>>>> Aside from getting a real name and learning to quote only the relevant
>>>> parts of what you are replying to, you want to learn to read what you
>>>> quote more carefully. I have not even implied that is_numeric() adds
>>>> anything.
>>> Aside from the fact that I'm fairly sure 'Pointed Ears' is not part
>>> of -your- real name,
>> It's “PointedEars”, stupid, without the space. And it is customary to
>> include the nickname in the From header field value as I did.
>
> ...not really sure why you have decided to attack me/start name calling
> but whatever.

A pot calling the kettle black. You are giving yourself too much credit (or
too little, depending how you look at it).

>>> maybe you would notice that my real name is in my signature.
>>
>> A real name consists of first *and* last name; it belongs in the From
>> header field value first, and you are evading the issue of your
>> misconception.
>
> ...sorry, I was not aware there were so many rules

Just common sense, including basic courtesy.

> I have yet to see an e-mail/news-reader client that explains them while
> setting up a Usenet account.

I know of no such newsreader either (presumably the abilities mentioned
above were assumed), but the KNode (4.10.2 and previous versions) handbook
(under menu Help→KNode handbook, or F1 key) also has a chapter titled “A
journey in the World of Newsgroups”, which is instructive.

If necessary, you would probably find basic instructions for your
Thunderbird in its handbook (menu Help→Help Contents, or F1 key), or on
mozilla.com.

And then there is news.newusers.* and dozens of good Usenet guides on the
Web.


F'up2 poster

PointedEars
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Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181474 is a reply to message #181471] Sat, 18 May 2013 10:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 5/18/2013 9:05 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 18/05/13 13:00, Norman Peelman wrote:
>>
>>> A real name consists of first *and* last name; it belongs in the From
>>> header
>>> field value first, and you are evading the issue of your misconception.
>>>
>>
>> ...sorry, I was not aware there were so many rules. I have yet to see
>> an e-mail/news-reader client that explains them while setting up a
>> Usenet account.
>>
> There are no rules. There is accepted custom and practice and personal
> decisions toted as standards, by the likes of pointy rears.
>
> There are very very good reasons to remain casually anonymous on Usenet.
> If you stray into any areas that arouse strong passions.
>

Yea, trolls definitely have a desire to remain anonymous.


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Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181475 is a reply to message #181472] Sat, 18 May 2013 12:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sanders Kaufman is currently offline  Sanders Kaufman
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"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:kn81o7$uq6$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...

> Usenet has threads for a reason. And this is a perfect example why. Maybe
> if Pointed Head weren't so caught up in criticizing everyone else

Usenet wasn't meant to be a discussion group at all - it was meant to be a
forum for uncensored reporting.
That's what the second N in NNTP stands for.
Threading is just an evolutionary remnant of it's SMTP heritage, and the
reason why Usenet devolved away from being a news forum.
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181476 is a reply to message #181475] Sat, 18 May 2013 14:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 5/18/2013 12:56 PM, Sanders Kaufman wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:kn81o7$uq6$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...
>
>> Usenet has threads for a reason. And this is a perfect example why.
>> Maybe if Pointed Head weren't so caught up in criticizing everyone else
>
> Usenet wasn't meant to be a discussion group at all - it was meant to be
> a forum for uncensored reporting.
> That's what the second N in NNTP stands for.
> Threading is just an evolutionary remnant of it's SMTP heritage, and the
> reason why Usenet devolved away from being a news forum.
>

You obviously haven't been around enough. It was a discussion forum back
the 70's when it was on ARPANET. It had threading back then, also.

But no matter what the original name was - TODAY'S use is what counts.
It is a threaded discussion group, and threads exist for a reason.

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Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181477 is a reply to message #181472] Sat, 18 May 2013 14:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Norman Peelman is currently offline  Norman Peelman
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On 05/18/2013 10:07 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 5/18/2013 8:51 AM, Christoph Becker wrote:
>> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> No, but since it is unrelated to the OP's problem, it's nothing more
>>> than thread hijacking - something Pointed Head is well known for, as I
>>> said before.
>>>
>>> If Pointed Head wanted to bring it up, he should have started a new
>>> thread. Or, better yet, reported it on the PHP bugs database, since
>>> none of the PHP developers pay attention to this newsgroup.
>>
>> Does it really matter if the issue is pointed out in this thread or in a
>> new thread with the subject "bug in is_numeric"? And does it matter who
>> files a respective bug report? After all, we all benefit from being PHP
>> as bug free/clearly documented as possible.
>>
>
> Yes, it does. People looking through threads will not find this problem
> if they look at the first couple of posts. And people looking at the
> first couple of posts will have to sort through a huge amount of garbage
> to figure out most of what is here is completely unrelated to the
> original subject.
>

Of which I was inarguably part of... sorry about that.

> Usenet has threads for a reason. And this is a perfect example why.
> Maybe if Pointed Head weren't so caught up in criticizing everyone else
> for what he perceives as egracious errors (like not using their real
> name in their header) he could figure out how not to hijack others'
> threads.
>
>


--
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Registered Linux user #461062
-Have you been to www.php.net yet?-
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181478 is a reply to message #181475] Sat, 18 May 2013 15:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas 'PointedEars'  is currently offline  Thomas 'PointedEars'
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Sanders Kaufman wrote:

> Usenet wasn't meant to be a discussion group at all - it was meant to be a
> forum for uncensored reporting.
> That's what the second N in NNTP stands for.
> Threading is just an evolutionary remnant of it's SMTP heritage, and the
> reason why Usenet devolved away from being a news forum.

Utter nonsense. I wonder who is writing your textbooks.


PointedEars
--
> If you get a bunch of authors […] that state the same "best practices"
> in any programming language, then you can bet who is wrong or right...
Not with javascript. Nonsense propagates like wildfire in this field.
-- Richard Cornford, comp.lang.javascript, 2011-11-14
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181479 is a reply to message #181476] Sat, 18 May 2013 16:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas 'PointedEars'  is currently offline  Thomas 'PointedEars'
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Jerry Stuckle wrote:

> On 5/18/2013 12:56 PM, Sanders Kaufman wrote:
>> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:kn81o7$uq6$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...
>>> Usenet has threads for a reason. And this is a perfect example why.
>>> Maybe if Pointed Head weren't so caught up in criticizing everyone else
>>
>> Usenet wasn't meant to be a discussion group at all - it was meant to be
>> a forum for uncensored reporting.
>> That's what the second N in NNTP stands for.
>> Threading is just an evolutionary remnant of it's SMTP heritage, and the
>> reason why Usenet devolved away from being a news forum.
>
> You obviously haven't been around enough.

Pot, kettle, black.

> It was a discussion forum back the 70's when it was on ARPANET. It had
> threading back then, also.

Although the NetNews Message Format nowadays (RFC 5536) is based on the
Internet Message Format (currently, RFC 5322), Usenet has always existed
separately from ARPAnet, and its successor, the Internet. The first Usenet
uaers used UUCP, not NNTP, and even NNTP is not required to use the Internet
infrastructure.

> But no matter what the original name was - TODAY'S use is what counts.

It is customary in Usenet to use *bold*, /italic/, or _underlined_ for
emphasis. Writing in all-caps is considered shouting instead, and therefore
impolite.

> It is a threaded discussion group, and threads exist for a reason.

“Thread drift”, as it is called, is normal and accepted on Usenet,
*especially* today. It has become that normal more than a decade ago that a
convention for change of Subject in the same thread (“New Subject (was: Old
Subject, without ‘Re:’)”) was implemented by several newsreaders, so that
the “ (was: …)” part was automatically removed from the Subject on replying.
People complaining about “thread hijacking” simply have no clue what they
are talking about. You will find that misconception predominantly among
people who are new to Usenet, who often come from Web forums, but there are
exceptions.

In this case there was not even thread drift as the Subject still fits the
content. Thread drift was initiated instead by the person complaining about
it. Honi soit qui mal y pense.

(Don't bother to reply.)


PointedEars
--
> If you get a bunch of authors […] that state the same "best practices"
> in any programming language, then you can bet who is wrong or right...
Not with javascript. Nonsense propagates like wildfire in this field.
-- Richard Cornford, comp.lang.javascript, 2011-11-14
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181480 is a reply to message #181479] Sat, 18 May 2013 17:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 5/18/2013 4:24 PM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>
>> On 5/18/2013 12:56 PM, Sanders Kaufman wrote:
>>> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:kn81o7$uq6$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...
>>>> Usenet has threads for a reason. And this is a perfect example why.
>>>> Maybe if Pointed Head weren't so caught up in criticizing everyone else
>>>
>>> Usenet wasn't meant to be a discussion group at all - it was meant to be
>>> a forum for uncensored reporting.
>>> That's what the second N in NNTP stands for.
>>> Threading is just an evolutionary remnant of it's SMTP heritage, and the
>>> reason why Usenet devolved away from being a news forum.
>>
>> You obviously haven't been around enough.
>
> Pot, kettle, black.
>

Been around a lot longer than you, Pointed Head. And a lot more
experience than you, also.

>> It was a discussion forum back the 70's when it was on ARPANET. It had
>> threading back then, also.
>
> Although the NetNews Message Format nowadays (RFC 5536) is based on the
> Internet Message Format (currently, RFC 5322), Usenet has always existed
> separately from ARPAnet, and its successor, the Internet. The first Usenet
> uaers used UUCP, not NNTP, and even NNTP is not required to use the Internet
> infrastructure.
>

Wrong, ARPANET and its successor, the Internet, are transport
mechanisms. Usenet ran over ARPANET in the 70's, and currently runs
over the Internet.

Except in your part of the world, where it seems to be transmitted by
sticks beating on hollow logs.

Or maybe your mommy took away your Internet access...

>> But no matter what the original name was - TODAY'S use is what counts.
>
> It is customary in Usenet to use *bold*, /italic/, or _underlined_ for
> emphasis. Writing in all-caps is considered shouting instead, and therefore
> impolite.
>

No, it is YOUR custom to emphasize with bold, italic, or whatever -
things which require HTML. But since HTML is NOT recommended for
Usenet, none of these are recommended.

Instead, limited use of all caps is considered by virtually EVERYONE
ELSE to be emphasis. Only TROLLS like POINTED HEAD complain about such
trivial things.

But then if you couldn't complain about such things, you wouldn't be
able to post without showing even more ignorance.

You are well known to do such in multiple newsgroups.

>> It is a threaded discussion group, and threads exist for a reason.
>
> “Thread drift”, as it is called, is normal and accepted on Usenet,
> *especially* today. It has become that normal more than a decade ago that a
> convention for change of Subject in the same thread (“New Subject (was: Old
> Subject, without ‘Re:’)”) was implemented by several newsreaders, so that
> the “ (was: …)” part was automatically removed from the Subject on replying.
> People complaining about “thread hijacking” simply have no clue what they
> are talking about. You will find that misconception predominantly among
> people who are new to Usenet, who often come from Web forums, but there are
> exceptions.
>

Thread drift is not the same as thread hijacking.

> In this case there was not even thread drift as the Subject still fits the
> content. Thread drift was initiated instead by the person complaining about
> it. Honi soit qui mal y pense.
>
> (Don't bother to reply.)
>
>
> PointedEars
>

What the topic says is immaterial. It all has to do with the OP's
original question. Your posts were completely unrelated to the OP's
problem, and you hijacked the thread,.

But once again, you are well known in multiple newsgroups for thread
hijacking and similar actions. You seem to have a very difficult time
staying on topic.


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Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181481 is a reply to message #181476] Sat, 18 May 2013 17:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Denis McMahon is currently offline  Denis McMahon
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On Sat, 18 May 2013 14:32:53 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

> But no matter what the original name was - TODAY'S use is what counts.
> It is a threaded discussion group, and threads exist for a reason.

Technically threading is a client feature by virtue of how client
software uses and displays the references and in-reply-to headers on the
individual messages.

As neither of those headers is mandatory in newsgroup messages, the
newsgroup as such, technically, is not in and of itself threaded, rather
it is a group in which threaded discussions may be posted.

--
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon(at)gmail(dot)com
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181482 is a reply to message #181476] Sat, 18 May 2013 18:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sanders Kaufman is currently offline  Sanders Kaufman
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"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:kn8h95$khj$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...

> You obviously haven't been around enough. It was a discussion forum back
> the 70's when it was on ARPANET. It had threading back then, also.

Personal attack not withstanding - nobody claimed otherwise.
So, you're just arguing with yourself.
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181483 is a reply to message #181476] Sat, 18 May 2013 18:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sanders Kaufman is currently offline  Sanders Kaufman
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"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:kn8h95$khj$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...

> It is a threaded discussion group, and threads exist for a reason.

Yupper - and that reason is to allow the discussion to morph as it will.
No hall monitor can stop it.
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181484 is a reply to message #181478] Sat, 18 May 2013 18:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sanders Kaufman is currently offline  Sanders Kaufman
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"Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn" wrote in message
news:3010429(dot)6D23Fo3XOK(at)PointedEars(dot)de...

>> Threading is just an evolutionary remnant of it's SMTP heritage, and the
>> reason why Usenet devolved away from being a news forum.

> Utter nonsense. I wonder who is writing your textbooks.

It's okay for you not to believe the things you see.
The world needs janitors.
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181485 is a reply to message #181484] Sat, 18 May 2013 18:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas 'PointedEars'  is currently offline  Thomas 'PointedEars'
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Sanders Kaufman wrote:

> "Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn" wrote […]
>>> Threading is just an evolutionary remnant of it's SMTP heritage, and the
>>> reason why Usenet devolved away from being a news forum.
>>
>> Utter nonsense. I wonder who is writing your textbooks.
>
> It's okay for you not to believe the things you see.
> The world needs janitors.

Please read <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet> pp. and shut up until you
have gotten a minimum clue of what you are talking about. Usenet was
conceived in 1979 by two graduate studends and started out in 1980 at two
U.S. universities as a discussion forum for scientists to exchange ideas.
Initially Unix-to-Unix-CoPy (UUCP, conceived in 1979) was used, then NNTP
(1986). SMTP came *after* Usenet was implemented, in 1982.


PointedEars
--
> If you get a bunch of authors […] that state the same "best practices"
> in any programming language, then you can bet who is wrong or right...
Not with javascript. Nonsense propagates like wildfire in this field.
-- Richard Cornford, comp.lang.javascript, 2011-11-14
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181486 is a reply to message #181482] Sat, 18 May 2013 18:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 18/05/13 23:08, Sanders Kaufman wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:kn8h95$khj$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...
>> You obviously haven't been around enough. It was a discussion forum
>> back the 70's when it was on ARPANET. It had threading back then, also.
>
> Personal attack not withstanding - nobody claimed otherwise.
> So, you're just arguing with yourself.
>
>
I see jerry is totally wrong, as usual

Thank Clapton for killfiles


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Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181487 is a reply to message #181481] Sat, 18 May 2013 19:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 5/18/2013 5:58 PM, Denis McMahon wrote:
> On Sat, 18 May 2013 14:32:53 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>
>> But no matter what the original name was - TODAY'S use is what counts.
>> It is a threaded discussion group, and threads exist for a reason.
>
> Technically threading is a client feature by virtue of how client
> software uses and displays the references and in-reply-to headers on the
> individual messages.
>
> As neither of those headers is mandatory in newsgroup messages, the
> newsgroup as such, technically, is not in and of itself threaded, rather
> it is a group in which threaded discussions may be posted.
>

Nope. RFC1036 defines the "References" header used to refer to a
previous message. It is a part of the Use net protocol.

Clients may or may not take advantage of the "References" header - but
it is not a "client feature".

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Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181488 is a reply to message #181482] Sat, 18 May 2013 19:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 5/18/2013 6:08 PM, Sanders Kaufman wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:kn8h95$khj$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...
>> You obviously haven't been around enough. It was a discussion forum
>> back the 70's when it was on ARPANET. It had threading back then, also.
>
> Personal attack not withstanding - nobody claimed otherwise.
> So, you're just arguing with yourself.
>
>

Incorrect. To quote you:


"Usenet wasn't meant to be a discussion group at all - it was meant to
be a forum for uncensored reporting.
That's what the second N in NNTP stands for.
Threading is just an evolutionary remnant of it's SMTP heritage, and the
reason why Usenet devolved away from being a news forum. "

That is completely incorrect.


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Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181489 is a reply to message #181483] Sat, 18 May 2013 19:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 5/18/2013 6:11 PM, Sanders Kaufman wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:kn8h95$khj$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...
>> It is a threaded discussion group, and threads exist for a reason.
>
> Yupper - and that reason is to allow the discussion to morph as it will.
> No hall monitor can stop it.
>
>

And this is a perfect example of why thread hijacking is frowned upon.

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Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181490 is a reply to message #181487] Sat, 18 May 2013 22:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Denis McMahon is currently offline  Denis McMahon
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On Sat, 18 May 2013 19:21:54 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

> On 5/18/2013 5:58 PM, Denis McMahon wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 May 2013 14:32:53 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>
>>> But no matter what the original name was - TODAY'S use is what counts.
>>> It is a threaded discussion group, and threads exist for a reason.
>>
>> Technically threading is a client feature by virtue of how client
>> software uses and displays the references and in-reply-to headers on
>> the individual messages.
>>
>> As neither of those headers is mandatory in newsgroup messages, the
>> newsgroup as such, technically, is not in and of itself threaded,
>> rather it is a group in which threaded discussions may be posted.

> Nope. RFC1036 defines the "References" header used to refer to a
> previous message. It is a part of the Use net protocol.

As I said, the header is not mandatory - I'm not discussing whether it's
part of the protocol, it clearly is, but it is not mandatory for every
post to have a references header[1].

Nor is it mandatory for any client to pay any attention to such a header
if present[2].

[1] A "new post" (as opposed to a "follow-up" or "reply") does not
usually have a references header, as it does not usually reference a
prior message.

[2] Although IMO it would be a pretty crap news client that didn't.

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Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181491 is a reply to message #181490] Sat, 18 May 2013 22:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 5/18/2013 10:22 PM, Denis McMahon wrote:
> On Sat, 18 May 2013 19:21:54 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>
>> On 5/18/2013 5:58 PM, Denis McMahon wrote:
>>> On Sat, 18 May 2013 14:32:53 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>
>>>> But no matter what the original name was - TODAY'S use is what counts.
>>>> It is a threaded discussion group, and threads exist for a reason.
>>>
>>> Technically threading is a client feature by virtue of how client
>>> software uses and displays the references and in-reply-to headers on
>>> the individual messages.
>>>
>>> As neither of those headers is mandatory in newsgroup messages, the
>>> newsgroup as such, technically, is not in and of itself threaded,
>>> rather it is a group in which threaded discussions may be posted.
>
>> Nope. RFC1036 defines the "References" header used to refer to a
>> previous message. It is a part of the Use net protocol.
>
> As I said, the header is not mandatory - I'm not discussing whether it's
> part of the protocol, it clearly is, but it is not mandatory for every
> post to have a references header[1].
>
> Nor is it mandatory for any client to pay any attention to such a header
> if present[2].
>
> [1] A "new post" (as opposed to a "follow-up" or "reply") does not
> usually have a references header, as it does not usually reference a
> prior message.
>
> [2] Although IMO it would be a pretty crap news client that didn't.
>

I didn't claim the header was mandatory. But it is not just a "client
feature". It is a defined part of the Usenet protocol - and has been
for decades.


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Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181492 is a reply to message #181490] Sun, 19 May 2013 02:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 19/05/13 03:22, Denis McMahon wrote:
> On Sat, 18 May 2013 19:21:54 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>
>> On 5/18/2013 5:58 PM, Denis McMahon wrote:
>>> On Sat, 18 May 2013 14:32:53 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>
>>>> But no matter what the original name was - TODAY'S use is what counts.
>>>> It is a threaded discussion group, and threads exist for a reason.
>>> Technically threading is a client feature by virtue of how client
>>> software uses and displays the references and in-reply-to headers on
>>> the individual messages.
>>>
>>> As neither of those headers is mandatory in newsgroup messages, the
>>> newsgroup as such, technically, is not in and of itself threaded,
>>> rather it is a group in which threaded discussions may be posted.
>> Nope. RFC1036 defines the "References" header used to refer to a
>> previous message. It is a part of the Use net protocol.
> As I said, the header is not mandatory - I'm not discussing whether it's
> part of the protocol, it clearly is, but it is not mandatory for every
> post to have a references header[1].
>
> Nor is it mandatory for any client to pay any attention to such a header
> if present[2].
>
> [1] A "new post" (as opposed to a "follow-up" or "reply") does not
> usually have a references header, as it does not usually reference a
> prior message.
>
> [2] Although IMO it would be a pretty crap news client that didn't.
>
Drifting slightly off topic, but there is a reason, the whole concept
underlying the Internet is that it never was a set of enforced
standards: That was the way X400 /X-25 worked.
But the standards were so massive that it was extremely onerous to
comply with all of them and that made the software expensive and clunky.

Internet has always been the mininmal solution to a real world problem,
with standards being reached by mutal agreement (the RFC process) and
tested against reality at 'Interops' .

The NNTP/SMTP header files are one of those areas. You don't actually
have to set any of them. I.e. the SMTP conversation for a message
transfer is simply one where a server says 'I have a message from X to
Y' followed by the message content which may or may not include headers
at all

Anything in the headers is not the business of the transfer protocol as
such: Its the business of the user agents and the MTAS.

So the guiding philosophy of the internet has never been (much to the
chagrin of those who like the smart uniforms, the jackboots and the
polished leather) to have rules enforced by a central agency: No it is
quite simply that if you want to actually use the internet, you had
better comply with mutually agreed standards or you will simply be ignored.

Return-receipt-to: is, for example, an RFC defined part of mail
headers, but there is no requirement to send it, or to respond to it.
The RFC merely notes that if UA's want to use this, this is an agreed
format for it.

This progress by mutual agreement has resulted in the massive and rapid
development of the Internet. For one good reason. You don't have to
implement EVERYTHING in order to implement ANYTHING.

Usenet grew out of UUCP back in the 80's, UUCP itself wasn't part of
ARPAnet IIRC but simply a tool cobbled together by smart people who
wanted to send data between computers equipped with modems, One part of
this was to actually transfer files. Another part was to send mail
messages. Using the abominable source routing. And Usenet grew out of
that, as a way to propagate idle chitchat.

The paucity of the newsreader software and the bandwith avaialable led
to some early netiquette convention. Don't quote everything, phone calls
cast money, so snip. But dont snip all the content, because the
original message may long be gone, or indeed may never have arrived at
all, so make your answer succinct, and give enough context so that its
clear what you are responding to. Ditto top posting. Its not easy to
read a response before reading what is being responded to. Especially on
a Vt100 with no scrollback.

Groups already existed in order to give some base level of filtering:
Threading became a USEFUL way to organise data within a group. Remember
at this time Usenet was the nearest thing in functionality that existed
to what we call the Interweb. I.e. one post but many readers of it.
Threading was a useful way to sort through the data and select what you
wanted to read.

And in a sense that takes me back to the original thread. Which exactly
mimics the RFC process. Someone says 'hey. is this a bug?' and various
people analyse the problem, decide that its not covered adequately by
either code or documentation, and those in charge of - in this case PHP
development - make an (arbitrary?) decision that its either the way they
think it should behave, that isn't clearly explained, or maybe it ought
to behave diferrently in which case they will fix the code so that it
does. There is no enforceable standardas to what PHP is SUPPOSED to be.
It is what it is, and its there by grace and favour of the people who
created it and maintain it. They define what it is supposed to be
themselves.

And finally, noting that there is a potential grey area, in the limit
they can simply say 'behvaiour is undefined' which means 'here be
Tygers, dont use this and expect it to work in this or any later
release in a defined fashion'. Which is actually a perfectly useful
response: coders simply wont use that particular contsruction, and
plenty of alternatives exist.

Some people don't like this way of proceeding: their instinct is towards
mandated perfection. They used to write X 400/X 25 type specifications
too. With the result that an X stack was too big to fit in anything but
a mainframe, and was too expensive to be used other than by very large
companies, and was too slow to develop and got overtaken by TCP/IP and
SMTP within a few years.

You can see those people., on Usenet, still disgruntled that their way
of doing things never really worked. You can see them in politics, where
despite the manifest failure of a top down regulated communist society,
they still hanker after the order and stability, and want to have a
central authority that decides everything, no matter how much it costs.
For them there is a right way, and all other ways are wrong. Rarther
than a selection of ways, some of which work better than others, and are
faster to implement.

You can see them here, too.

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(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181493 is a reply to message #181485] Sun, 19 May 2013 06:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sanders Kaufman is currently offline  Sanders Kaufman
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"Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn" wrote in message
news:1536024(dot)cBPBjKTSvE(at)PointedEars(dot)de...

> Please read <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet> pp. and shut up until you
> have gotten a minimum clue of what you are talking about. Usenet was
> conceived in 1979 by two graduate studends and started out in 1980 at two
> U.S. universities as a discussion forum for scientists to exchange ideas.
> Initially Unix-to-Unix-CoPy (UUCP, conceived in 1979) was used, then NNTP
> (1986). SMTP came *after* Usenet was implemented, in 1982.

That's one version of the story - and a very abbreviated one at that.
But it's still an awfully odd thing for you to throw a tantrum over.
Have you considered medication or electro-shock therapy?
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181494 is a reply to message #181487] Sun, 19 May 2013 06:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:kn9272$bcv$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...

> Nope. RFC1036 defines the "References" header used to refer to a
> previous message. It is a part of the Use net protocol.

There are protocols usenet uses, but there is no usenet protocol.
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181495 is a reply to message #181491] Sun, 19 May 2013 06:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:kn9dtn$mo4$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...

> I didn't claim the header was mandatory. But it is not just a "client
> feature". It is a defined part of the Usenet protocol - and has been
> for decades.

Well it probably would have been - had there ever been a usenet protocol.
But there is no usenet protocol.
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181496 is a reply to message #181492] Sun, 19 May 2013 06:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news:kn9sle$sl6$1(at)news(dot)albasani(dot)net...

> You can see those people., on Usenet, still disgruntled that their way of
> doing things never really worked. You can see them in politics, where
> despite the manifest failure of a top down regulated communist society,

blah, blah, blah
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181497 is a reply to message #181489] Sun, 19 May 2013 06:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:kn92ad$bcv$3(at)dont-email(dot)me...
> On 5/18/2013 6:11 PM, Sanders Kaufman wrote:

>> Yupper - and that reason is to allow the discussion to morph as it will.
>> No hall monitor can stop it.
>
> And this is a perfect example of why thread hijacking is frowned upon.

Since you went along willijngly, it's not really a hijacking.
That's just your victim mentality taking over.
If you don't like the direction you've taken in your discussion, you have
only yourself to blame.
It's just you, whining about how much you dislike the way you choose to
spend your time.

Man up.
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181498 is a reply to message #181493] Sun, 19 May 2013 06:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas 'PointedEars'  is currently offline  Thomas 'PointedEars'
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Sanders Kaufman wrote:

> "Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn" wrote in message
> news:1536024(dot)cBPBjKTSvE(at)PointedEars(dot)de...

It's attribution _line_, not attribution novel.

>> Please read <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet> pp. and shut up until
>> you have gotten a minimum clue of what you are talking about. Usenet was
>> conceived in 1979 by two graduate studen[t]s and started out in 1980 at two
>> U.S. universities as a discussion forum for scientists to exchange ideas.
>> Initially Unix-to-Unix-CoPy (UUCP, conceived in 1979) was used, then NNTP
>> (1986). SMTP came *after* Usenet was implemented, in 1982.
>
> That's one version of the story - and a very abbreviated one at that.

The UUCP bang path in your posting (and all other postings), which was
transferred via NNTP to the news server that I am using –

| Path: newsspool2.arcor-online.net!newsspool1.arcor-online.net!newsspool2.arcor-
online.net!newsfeed.arcor.de!newsfeed.kamp.net!newsfeed.kamp.net!news.glorb .com!npeer02.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!feed-me.highw inds-
media.com!post02.iad.highwinds-media.com!newsfe22.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail

– is living proof that you have no clue what you are talking about.

> But it's still an awfully odd thing for you to throw a tantrum over.
> Have you considered medication or electro-shock therapy?

Have you?

*PLONK* & F'up2 where it belongs
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181501 is a reply to message #181496] Sun, 19 May 2013 07:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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On 19/05/13 11:31, Sanders Kaufman wrote:
> "The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
> news:kn9sle$sl6$1(at)news(dot)albasani(dot)net...
>
>> You can see those people., on Usenet, still disgruntled that their
>> way of doing things never really worked. You can see them in
>> politics, where despite the manifest failure of a top down regulated
>> communist society,
>
> blah, blah, blah
Alway nice to see carefully researched well reasoned comments :-)



--
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(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181502 is a reply to message #181498] Sun, 19 May 2013 07:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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On 19/05/13 11:40, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
> Sanders Kaufman wrote:
>
>> "Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn" wrote in message
>> news:1536024(dot)cBPBjKTSvE(at)PointedEars(dot)de...
> It's attribution _line_, not attribution novel.
>
>>> Please read <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet> pp. and shut up until
>>> you have gotten a minimum clue of what you are talking about. Usenet was
>>> conceived in 1979 by two graduate studen[t]s and started out in 1980 at two
>>> U.S. universities as a discussion forum for scientists to exchange ideas.
>>> Initially Unix-to-Unix-CoPy (UUCP, conceived in 1979) was used, then NNTP
>>> (1986). SMTP came *after* Usenet was implemented, in 1982.
>> That's one version of the story - and a very abbreviated one at that.
> The UUCP bang path in your posting (and all other postings), which was
> transferred via NNTP to the news server that I am using –
>
> | Path: newsspool2.arcor-online.net!newsspool1.arcor-online.net!newsspool2.arcor-
> online.net!newsfeed.arcor.de!newsfeed.kamp.net!newsfeed.kamp.net!news.glorb .com!npeer02.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!feed-me.highw inds-
> media.com!post02.iad.highwinds-media.com!newsfe22.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
>
> – is living proof that you have no clue what you are talking about.
>
>> But it's still an awfully odd thing for you to throw a tantrum over.
>> Have you considered medication or electro-shock therapy?
> Have you?
>
> *PLONK* & F'up2 where it belongs
Sometimes you can be an excessively pedanatic net Nazi Thomas, but that
doesn't mean you are not right.

Which is why, unlike Stuckle. you are not in my killfile :-)


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181507 is a reply to message #181495] Sun, 19 May 2013 09:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 5/19/2013 6:28 AM, Sanders Kaufman wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:kn9dtn$mo4$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...
>> I didn't claim the header was mandatory. But it is not just a "client
>> feature". It is a defined part of the Usenet protocol - and has been
>> for decades.
>
> Well it probably would have been - had there ever been a usenet protocol.
> But there is no usenet protocol.
>

Once again you don't know what you are talking about. The protocol used
in Usenet are well documented in RFC's. And without a protocol there
would be no agreement on how to implement Usenet - and no Usenet.


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Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181508 is a reply to message #181501] Sun, 19 May 2013 09:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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On 5/19/2013 7:39 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 19/05/13 11:31, Sanders Kaufman wrote:
>> "The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
>> news:kn9sle$sl6$1(at)news(dot)albasani(dot)net...
>>
>>> You can see those people., on Usenet, still disgruntled that their
>>> way of doing things never really worked. You can see them in
>>> politics, where despite the manifest failure of a top down regulated
>>> communist society,
>>
>> blah, blah, blah
> Alway nice to see carefully researched well reasoned comments :-)
>
>
>

In this case I agree with Sanders. Much more well reasoned than your tripe.


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Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181509 is a reply to message #181494] Sun, 19 May 2013 09:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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On 5/19/2013 6:27 AM, Sanders Kaufman wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:kn9272$bcv$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...
>> Nope. RFC1036 defines the "References" header used to refer to a
>> previous message. It is a part of the Use net protocol.
>
> There are protocols usenet uses, but there is no usenet protocol.
>

Wrong again. Check the RFCs. Usenet has its own protocol - separate
from HTTP, SMTP, etc.

Why do you think it is called "Network News Transfer PROTOCOL"?

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Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181510 is a reply to message #181497] Sun, 19 May 2013 09:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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On 5/19/2013 6:35 AM, Sanders Kaufman wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:kn92ad$bcv$3(at)dont-email(dot)me...
>> On 5/18/2013 6:11 PM, Sanders Kaufman wrote:
>
>>> Yupper - and that reason is to allow the discussion to morph as it will.
>>> No hall monitor can stop it.
>>
>> And this is a perfect example of why thread hijacking is frowned upon.
>
> Since you went along willijngly, it's not really a hijacking.
> That's just your victim mentality taking over.
> If you don't like the direction you've taken in your discussion, you
> have only yourself to blame.
> It's just you, whining about how much you dislike the way you choose to
> spend your time.
>
> Man up.
>

No, I did not go along willingly with Pointed Head's hijacking of the
thread.

Stand up and take a load of your brains. Then learn to read.


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Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181512 is a reply to message #181510] Sun, 19 May 2013 12:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sanders Kaufman is currently offline  Sanders Kaufman
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"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:knaksf$oi1$4(at)dont-email(dot)me...

> No, I did not go along willingly with Pointed Head's hijacking of the
> thread.

OK, assuming you're the victim you say you are...
- Who forced your hand and made you post those replies?
- Did you choose the wording, or was that forced on you as well.
- These folks who force you to post replies - do they make you to do other
things, as well?
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181514 is a reply to message #181498] Sun, 19 May 2013 12:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sanders Kaufman is currently offline  Sanders Kaufman
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"Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn" wrote in message
news:4631447(dot)XAOiFNHz4U(at)PointedEars(dot)de...

> The UUCP bang path in your posting (and all other postings), which was
> transferred via NNTP to the news server that I am using –
> – is living proof that you have no clue what you are talking about.

That's quite a tantrum.
I especially like the part where you say that a message header is actually
ALIVE.

Either way, you're right to be ashamed to post such crap under your own
name.
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181515 is a reply to message #181509] Sun, 19 May 2013 12:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:knakq9$oi1$3(at)dont-email(dot)me...

> Wrong again. Check the RFCs. Usenet has its own protocol - separate from
> HTTP, SMTP, etc.

Of course usenet HAS protocols. Nobody claimed otherwise.
But you said that usenet IS a protocol - and that's patently false.

Usenet is not a protocol.
The world wide web is not a protocol.
Facebook is not a protocol.
They all use protocols, but are not themselves protocols.

And while we're at it - your monitor is not a computer and no, I can't
install Microsoft on your mouse. ;)
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181516 is a reply to message #181507] Sun, 19 May 2013 12:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:knakk4$oi1$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...

> Once again you don't know what you are talking about. The protocol used in
> Usenet are well documented in RFC's. And without a protocol there would be
> no agreement on how to implement Usenet - and no Usenet.

Usenet uses protocols nobody claimed otherwise.
Your error was in thinking that the application IS the protocol - which it
is not.

In psychology, this logical disconnect happens a lot with older folks.
And when it's pointed out to them, they get very defensive.
I really hope I don't do that when I get to be that age.
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181517 is a reply to message #181501] Sun, 19 May 2013 12:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news:knadkl$t97$1(at)news(dot)albasani(dot)net...

> Alway nice to see carefully researched well reasoned comments :-)

If you want to be taken seriously, you have to behave like a serious person.
Ranting about commie conspiracies is not the path to that goal.
Re: bug in is_numeric [message #181518 is a reply to message #181508] Sun, 19 May 2013 12:52 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Sanders Kaufman is currently offline  Sanders Kaufman
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"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:knakmd$oi1$2(at)dont-email(dot)me...

> In this case I agree with Sanders. Much more well reasoned than your
> tripe.

This happens a lot with the Republican fringes - especially the
Libertarians.
They see someone who's wrong being schooled and they join in - so they can
finally feel like they're right about something.

But then their character comes out and they rail about commie conspiracies
and Kenyan spies and nobody takes them seriously.
So they change their fake ID and start all over again.

Anonymity was a great principle - for a news forum.
But for a threaded discussion forum - it just enables hecklers and vandals
to piss on people without having to suffer the consequences.
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