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ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184311] Sun, 22 December 2013 14:05 Go to next message
Daniel Pitts is currently offline  Daniel Pitts
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Hey everyone,

This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.

I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to
there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
business code.

I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if they've
been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.

I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
* Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
* Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006)
* Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-)

And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate,
including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.


So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did you
like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a flame war,
so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used them.

I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.

Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of changes
with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...

Thanks for your consideration,
Daniel.
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184312 is a reply to message #184311] Sun, 22 December 2013 14:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arne Vajhøj is currently offline  Arne Vajhøj
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On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>
> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to
> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
> libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
> business code.
>
> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if they've
> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.
>
> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
> * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
> * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006)
> * Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-)
>
> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate,
> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>
>
> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did you
> like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a flame war,
> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used them.
>
> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>
> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of changes
> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...

My experience is that ORM is good for cases where all of the
following apply:
- changes of single rows or simple queries
- database is designed for ORM or are relative simple

ORM is obviously not intended for changing large number of rows
(bulk operations).

For very complex queries one end up working around limitations
in the QL to achieve what is easy to do in SQL.

Old legacy databases with a bad design is very difficult to
map to ORM and the result often perform very poorly.

ORM's used:
Java - entity EJB's, Hibernate, JPA
.NET - NHibernate, LINQ to SQL, EF

Non ORM used:
Java - JDBC
.NET - ADO.NET
PHP - mysql, mysqli and PDO extensions

Preference:
Java - JPA (due to standard, features and ease of use)
.NET : NHibernate (due to features and ease of use)

Arne
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184313 is a reply to message #184311] Sun, 22 December 2013 15:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>
> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to
> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
> libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
> business code.
>
> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if they've
> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.
>
> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
> * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
> * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006)
> * Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-)
>
> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate,
> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>
>
> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did you
> like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a flame war,
> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used them.
>
> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>
> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of changes
> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>
> Thanks for your consideration,
> Daniel.

Is there a PHP question in there? I don't see one...

--
==================
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Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184314 is a reply to message #184313] Sun, 22 December 2013 15:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arne Vajhøj is currently offline  Arne Vajhøj
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On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>
>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
>> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to
>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
>> libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>> business code.
>>
>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if they've
>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.
>>
>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>> * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>> * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006)
>> * Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>
>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate,
>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>
>>
>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did you
>> like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a flame war,
>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used them.
>>
>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>
>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of changes
>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>
> Is there a PHP question in there? I don't see one...

Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
ORM's could be included in discussion.

Arne
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184315 is a reply to message #184314] Sun, 22 December 2013 15:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>> Hey everyone,
>>>
>>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>>
>>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
>>> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to
>>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
>>> libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>>> business code.
>>>
>>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if they've
>>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.
>>>
>>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>> * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>> * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006)
>>> * Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>>
>>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate,
>>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>>
>>>
>>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did you
>>> like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a flame war,
>>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used them.
>>>
>>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
>>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>>
>>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of changes
>>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>
>> Is there a PHP question in there? I don't see one...
>
> Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
> ORM's could be included in discussion.
>
> Arne
>
>

I still don't see a PHP question here. I see some product questions -
which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications.

Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate for a
PHP language newsgroup.

But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups and
think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184316 is a reply to message #184315] Sun, 22 December 2013 16:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arne Vajhøj is currently offline  Arne Vajhøj
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On 12/22/2013 3:47 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>>> Hey everyone,
>>>>
>>>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>>>
>>>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
>>>> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to
>>>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>>>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
>>>> libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>>>> business code.
>>>>
>>>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if they've
>>>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.
>>>>
>>>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>>> * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>>> * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006)
>>>> * Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>>>
>>>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate,
>>>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did
>>>> you
>>>> like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a flame war,
>>>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used
>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
>>>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>>>
>>>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of
>>>> changes
>>>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>>
>>> Is there a PHP question in there? I don't see one...
>>
>> Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
>> ORM's could be included in discussion.
>
> I still don't see a PHP question here. I see some product questions -
> which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications.
>
> Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate for a
> PHP language newsgroup.
>
> But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups and
> think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup.

ORM's are not applications. They are libraries.

And since it is question asking for comparison, then a group
for a specific library is not a good choice.

Instead a group with people with experience and interest in
different ways of database access from PHP is needed.

comp.lang.php does not seem that far fetched.

Obviously comp.lang.php.databaseaccess or comp.lang.php.databaseaccess.orm
would be even better if such exists.

Arne
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184317 is a reply to message #184316] Sun, 22 December 2013 16:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 12/22/2013 4:04 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 3:47 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>>> > Hey everyone,
>>>> >
>>>> > This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>>> >
>>>> > I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
>>>> > both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to
>>>> > there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>>>> > problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
>>>> > libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>>>> > business code.
>>>> >
>>>> > I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if
>>>> > they've
>>>> > been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.
>>>> >
>>>> > I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>>> > * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>>> > * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006)
>>>> > * Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>>> >
>>>> > And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate,
>>>> > including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did
>>>> > you
>>>> > like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a flame
>>>> > war,
>>>> > so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used
>>>> > them.
>>>> >
>>>> > I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
>>>> > complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>>> >
>>>> > Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of
>>>> > changes
>>>> > with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>>>
>>>> Is there a PHP question in there? I don't see one...
>>>
>>> Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
>>> ORM's could be included in discussion.
>>
>> I still don't see a PHP question here. I see some product questions -
>> which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications.
>>
>> Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate for a
>> PHP language newsgroup.
>>
>> But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups and
>> think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup.
>
> ORM's are not applications. They are libraries.
>
> And since it is question asking for comparison, then a group
> for a specific library is not a good choice.
>
> Instead a group with people with experience and interest in
> different ways of database access from PHP is needed.
>
> comp.lang.php does not seem that far fetched.
>
> Obviously comp.lang.php.databaseaccess or comp.lang.php.databaseaccess.orm
> would be even better if such exists.
>
> Arne
>

Yes, an ORM-related newsgroup would be more appropriate. There you have
people who know the advantages and disadvantages of various ORM's.

Few, if any, in the language-related newsgroups will have used an ORM,
and if they have, they have very limited experience.

But as I said - some people think any question can be asked in any
newsgroup, no matter how thin the connection. But others prefer to
direct people to appropriate newsgroups, where they will get GOOD
answers from knowledgeable people.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184318 is a reply to message #184317] Sun, 22 December 2013 16:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arne Vajhøj is currently offline  Arne Vajhøj
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On 12/22/2013 4:09 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 4:04 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/22/2013 3:47 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> > On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>>> >> Hey everyone,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
>>>> >> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to
>>>> >> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>>>> >> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
>>>> >> libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>>>> >> business code.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if
>>>> >> they've
>>>> >> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>>> >> * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>>> >> * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around
>>>> >> 2006)
>>>> >> * Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after
>>>> >> Hibernate,
>>>> >> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did
>>>> >> you
>>>> >> like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a flame
>>>> >> war,
>>>> >> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used
>>>> >> them.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
>>>> >> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of
>>>> >> changes
>>>> >> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>>> >
>>>> > Is there a PHP question in there? I don't see one...
>>>>
>>>> Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
>>>> ORM's could be included in discussion.
>>>
>>> I still don't see a PHP question here. I see some product questions -
>>> which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications.
>>>
>>> Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate for a
>>> PHP language newsgroup.
>>>
>>> But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups and
>>> think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup.
>>
>> ORM's are not applications. They are libraries.
>>
>> And since it is question asking for comparison, then a group
>> for a specific library is not a good choice.
>>
>> Instead a group with people with experience and interest in
>> different ways of database access from PHP is needed.
>>
>> comp.lang.php does not seem that far fetched.
>>
>> Obviously comp.lang.php.databaseaccess or
>> comp.lang.php.databaseaccess.orm
>> would be even better if such exists.
>
> Yes, an ORM-related newsgroup would be more appropriate. There you have
> people who know the advantages and disadvantages of various ORM's.

ORM's are language specific. So it would need to be a PHP ORM group
to cover PHP.

Does one exist?

> Few, if any, in the language-related newsgroups will have used an ORM,
> and if they have, they have very limited experience.

That depends on the language.

In languages like Java and C# it would be >90% that have used an ORM.

It is probably much less in PHP as ORM's are not as widely used
in the PHP world.

But I suspect that Daniel even may be interested in knowing more
about why it is so.

Arne
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184319 is a reply to message #184311] Sun, 22 December 2013 16:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marcel Müller is currently offline  Marcel Müller
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On 22.12.13 20.05, Daniel Pitts wrote:
> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.

The topic is unlikely to fit to php. F'up to java only.

> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to there
> limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve problems
> that I've always felt should have been solved by the core libraries.
> Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core business code.

First of all you need to mention what ORMs are designed for. They are
intended to make SQL databases suitable for OO programming style and/or
non-relational data models. At the end OO expressions are turned into
SQL and then to an execution plan.
From that you can see that there is exactly one thing superfluous in
this scenario: SQL. It is the bottleneck where all expressions must fit
to. But it does not add any functionality, quite the contrary. It is
just a emulation level for compatibility, like a SATA adapter enables a
SATA drive to be used with an IDE port.

You see, I am not really a friend of ORM. If a relational data model
does not fit your needs, you first should consider to use a non
relational database, rather than to normalize the data model to fit into
a relational DB, and use an ORM to hide that from the application layer.

ORMs are known to slow things down. I don't think that this is true in
general. But the ORM layer makes some trivial looking expressions
amazingly complex. So it is not that easy for the programmer to estimate
the complexity of a code block, without knowledge about the entire ORM
layer and the base data model in SQL. In fact I have redesigned many
code parts because of this.

There is one advantage. Adding attributes to the data model is quite
simple with an ORM. No need to do redundant changes at many locations.
But any document DB will provide this as well without the need for SQL
and an ORM.

Of course, if you are stuck with an SQL DB for some reason and you need
to adapt to an OO application layer ORM might be a choice. But if the
data model in the DB is not intended for ORM usage, you won't get happy,
because there are almost always properties of the data model that are
not correctly modeled in SQL.


However, to get more detailed information you need to phrase your
questions more precisely. What are your topics of interest? Performance?
Maintainability? What kind of data model do you intend to use? Many
entities? Or many properties? What kind of relations? Polymorphism?


Marcel
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184320 is a reply to message #184318] Sun, 22 December 2013 16:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 12/22/2013 4:20 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 4:09 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 12/22/2013 4:04 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2013 3:47 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> > On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> >> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>>> >>> Hey everyone,
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various
>>>> >>> ORMs,
>>>> >>> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to
>>>> >>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>>>> >>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
>>>> >>> libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>>>> >>> business code.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if
>>>> >>> they've
>>>> >>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they
>>>> >>> use.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>>> >>> * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>>> >>> * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around
>>>> >>> 2006)
>>>> >>> * Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after
>>>> >>> Hibernate,
>>>> >>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did
>>>> >>> you
>>>> >>> like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a flame
>>>> >>> war,
>>>> >>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used
>>>> >>> them.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off
>>>> >>> applications to
>>>> >>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of
>>>> >>> changes
>>>> >>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Is there a PHP question in there? I don't see one...
>>>> >
>>>> > Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
>>>> > ORM's could be included in discussion.
>>>>
>>>> I still don't see a PHP question here. I see some product questions -
>>>> which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications.
>>>>
>>>> Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate for a
>>>> PHP language newsgroup.
>>>>
>>>> But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups and
>>>> think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup.
>>>
>>> ORM's are not applications. They are libraries.
>>>
>>> And since it is question asking for comparison, then a group
>>> for a specific library is not a good choice.
>>>
>>> Instead a group with people with experience and interest in
>>> different ways of database access from PHP is needed.
>>>
>>> comp.lang.php does not seem that far fetched.
>>>
>>> Obviously comp.lang.php.databaseaccess or
>>> comp.lang.php.databaseaccess.orm
>>> would be even better if such exists.
>>
>> Yes, an ORM-related newsgroup would be more appropriate. There you have
>> people who know the advantages and disadvantages of various ORM's.
>
> ORM's are language specific. So it would need to be a PHP ORM group
> to cover PHP.
>
> Does one exist?
>
>> Few, if any, in the language-related newsgroups will have used an ORM,
>> and if they have, they have very limited experience.
>
> That depends on the language.
>
> In languages like Java and C# it would be >90% that have used an ORM.
>
> It is probably much less in PHP as ORM's are not as widely used
> in the PHP world.
>
> But I suspect that Daniel even may be interested in knowing more
> about why it is so.
>
> Arne
>

If you want, you can talk all you want about it in c.l.j.p. But this
does not belong in c.l.p.

FUP set to c.l.j.p only.


--
==================
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==================
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184321 is a reply to message #184311] Sun, 22 December 2013 19:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kevin McMurtrie is currently offline  Kevin McMurtrie
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In article <%JGtu.29103$Wm1(dot)26832(at)fx17(dot)iad>,
Daniel Pitts <newsgroup(dot)nospam(at)virtualinfinity(dot)net> wrote:

> Hey everyone,
>
> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>
> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to
> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
> libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
> business code.
>
> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if they've
> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.
>
> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
> * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
> * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006)
> * Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-)
>
> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate,
> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>
>
> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did you
> like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a flame war,
> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used them.
>
> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>
> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of changes
> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>
> Thanks for your consideration,
> Daniel.

I don't like ORM utilities much because they rarely model all of the
complex relationships and behaviors, for better or worse, that may exist
in SQL. You end up spending at least as much time working around those
limitations as time initially saved.

Simpler data works fine in ORM, but simpler data is isn't the complex
task ORM tries to solve.

That leaves many ORM utilities as too enormous, too complex, too slow,
and still a poor fit for SQL. I see ORM as potentially being an
excellent fit for document stores but I have little experience with
those.
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184322 is a reply to message #184320] Sun, 22 December 2013 20:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Qu0ll is currently offline  Qu0ll
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"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:l97lta$j20$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...

> If you want, you can talk all you want about it in c.l.j.p. But this does
> not belong in c.l.p.
>
> FUP set to c.l.j.p only.

Jerry, could you please post a copy of the certificate you received when you
were appointed the owner of c.l.p? Either that or the "Resident Troll
Award" would be suitable.

--
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-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184323 is a reply to message #184322] Sun, 22 December 2013 23:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael Vilain is currently offline  Michael Vilain
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In article <du2dnSyfhaGKBSrPnZ2dnUVZ_qqdnZ2d(at)westnet(dot)com(dot)au>,
"Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:

> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:l97lta$j20$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...
>
>> If you want, you can talk all you want about it in c.l.j.p. But this does
>> not belong in c.l.p.
>>
>> FUP set to c.l.j.p only.
>
> Jerry, could you please post a copy of the certificate you received when you
> were appointed the owner of c.l.p? Either that or the "Resident Troll
> Award" would be suitable.
>
> --
> And loving it,
>
> -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
> _________________________________________________
> Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com
> [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]

It's amusing what I miss after I plonked him. Not much, still, from what
I can tell.

--
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Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184324 is a reply to message #184311] Mon, 23 December 2013 01:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Qu0ll is currently offline  Qu0ll
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"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:l98bph$v8o$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...

Wow Jerry, your response was so weak you felt the need to post it 3 times!

> Qu0ll,
>
> Could you please show where you EVER have posted in comp.lang.php?
>
> We have a good group here. Don't ruin it by making off-topic posts. If
> you what to see what's appropriate, please refer to the charger for the
> newsgroup.
>
> This is comp.LANG.php, not comp.ORM.php.

OK, I get it, people who have never posted in a particular group are not
allowed to comment. Got it. My mistake, I see you really *do* own the
group!

> Fupped to c.l.j.p. for the TROLL's benefit (correct one this time)

Not sure how you benefitted from that but thanks for the admission.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184325 is a reply to message #184311] Mon, 23 December 2013 07:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Silvio is currently offline  Silvio
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I did several stabs at ORMs in some small toy projects but have mainly
use ORMs working on existing projects using ORMs (both Hibernate and
Toplink) that where performing extremely poorly and had become almost
impossible to maintain and extend. I was then called in to take the ORM
out of the system as much as possible. This always consisted of creating
alternative tools for interacting with the RDBMS that the programmers
could use to rewrite the must critical and/or problematic system parts.

So you could say I have mainly negative experiences I could share. To
put it bluntly: I think ORM is a bad idea in general. I dig OOP for
modelling the transient behaviour of a running program but find the
relational model far superior for modelling data. I also find it
beneficial in general to think of data and programs working on data as
separate things.

ORM is a mechanism to help you do it the other way around, and a poor
one at it. If you want to persist objects use an object database or
serialize to some NoSQL store. If you want structured data in an RDBMS
don't degrade it into a pile of persisted objects.

Silvio
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184326 is a reply to message #184324] Mon, 23 December 2013 07:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 12/23/2013 1:38 AM, the well-known TROLL Qu0ll wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:l98bph$v8o$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...
>
> Wow Jerry, your response was so weak you felt the need to post it 3 times!
>
>> Qu0ll,
>>
>> Could you please show where you EVER have posted in comp.lang.php?
>>
>> We have a good group here. Don't ruin it by making off-topic posts.
>> If you what to see what's appropriate, please refer to the charger for
>> the newsgroup.
>>
>> This is comp.LANG.php, not comp.ORM.php.
>
> OK, I get it, people who have never posted in a particular group are not
> allowed to comment. Got it. My mistake, I see you really *do* own the
> group!
>

People with PHP questions are welcome. But we have enough TROLLS
without you. You do not know the group, the history or the members.
But you know better than the regular readers what is best for this
newsgroup.

How like the TROLL you are so well-known as! No wonder you refuse to
use your real name and use a gmail address.

>> Fupped to c.l.j.p. for the TROLL's benefit (correct one this time)
>
> Not sure how you benefitted from that but thanks for the admission.
>
> --
> And loving it,
>
> -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
> _________________________________________________
> Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com
> [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]

FUP reset for the TROLL's benefit.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184327 is a reply to message #184323] Mon, 23 December 2013 07:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 12/22/2013 11:48 PM, Michael Vilain wrote:
> In article <du2dnSyfhaGKBSrPnZ2dnUVZ_qqdnZ2d(at)westnet(dot)com(dot)au>,
> "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:
>
>> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:l97lta$j20$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...
>>
>>> If you want, you can talk all you want about it in c.l.j.p. But this does
>>> not belong in c.l.p.
>>>
>>> FUP set to c.l.j.p only.
>>
>> Jerry, could you please post a copy of the certificate you received when you
>> were appointed the owner of c.l.p? Either that or the "Resident Troll
>> Award" would be suitable.
>>
>> --
>> And loving it,
>>
>> -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
>> _________________________________________________
>> Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com
>> [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]
>
> It's amusing what I miss after I plonked him. Not much, still, from what
> I can tell.
>

How great it's been since you haven't been around! So much nicer!


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184328 is a reply to message #184311] Mon, 23 December 2013 08:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
leif.roar is currently offline  leif.roar
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In comp.lang.java.programmer Daniel Pitts <newsgroup(dot)nospam(at)virtualinfinity(dot)net> wrote:
>
> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did you
> like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a flame war,
> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used them.

I've worked with Hibernate / JPA and plain old SQL, and for my purposes
(business/process-driven web applications) they're a wash. Both are painful
in their own way, and I can't say I prefer either over the other.

Hibernate takes the pain out of managing the differences in SQL dialects
between various databases, and makes it quick to map data from the
relational tables into your domain objects. On the bad side, you end up
with "one view and one view only" of your data -- trying to represent
the data in a table in two different ways depending on use is a real
pain with Hibernate. You also often end up having to write mapping code
for your data _anyway_, as you might want to map your domain objects
into transfer objects to keep your database model from leaking out
into the display layer or elsewhere.

One annoyance with Hibernate is that you can't easily specify how much of
your object graph you want a query to cover, so you end up having to
keep your database transactions open across the whole of the business
process step, as Hibernate doesn't know what to retrieve until it's
actually used.

Perhaps most dangerously, Hibernate insulates the developers from the
database and keeps them from getting necessary understanding and
experience with it. You easily end up with developers who has learnt
to muddle along using Hibernate, but doesn't really understand what's
happening beneath it. That wouldn't be a problem if Hibernate let you
do 100% of what you needed to do, but in my experience you usually
end up with 5-10% of the database access being ill suited to Hibernate.

Plain SQL is a pain because you have to write all your own data mapping
code, which is error-prone and end up being more work than you thought --
and then you have to manage all the relationships between data in different
tables yourself.

The JDBC API is also really, really bad, but you can escape much of
that pain by using a helper like JDBC Template or similar.

--
Leif Roar Moldskred
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184329 is a reply to message #184326] Mon, 23 December 2013 18:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Qu0ll is currently offline  Qu0ll
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"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:l99c07$fvi$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...

> People with PHP questions are welcome. But we have enough TROLLS without
> you. You do not know the group, the history or the members. But you know
> better than the regular readers what is best for this newsgroup.

There's one in every newsgroup. The one who thinks they own it. The one
who thinks their opinion is more important than any other. The one who
thinks they have the right to say who posts and who doesn't post. The one
who treats newbies like they have committed a federal offence. The one who
spends more time picking up on grammar or capitalisation than actually
helping others. And the one whose opinion of themselves is of the rock star
of all rock stars.

Thank you Jerry for putting up your hand and letting newcomers know who this
person is for c.l.p so quickly!

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184330 is a reply to message #184329] Mon, 23 December 2013 19:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 12/23/2013 6:11 PM, the well-known TROLL Qu0ll wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:l99c07$fvi$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...
>
>> People with PHP questions are welcome. But we have enough TROLLS
>> without you. You do not know the group, the history or the members.
>> But you know better than the regular readers what is best for this
>> newsgroup.
>
> There's one in every newsgroup. The one who thinks they own it. The
> one who thinks their opinion is more important than any other. The one
> who thinks they have the right to say who posts and who doesn't post.
> The one who treats newbies like they have committed a federal offence.
> The one who spends more time picking up on grammar or capitalisation
> than actually helping others. And the one whose opinion of themselves is
> of the rock star of all rock stars.
>
> Thank you Jerry for putting up your hand and letting newcomers know who
> this person is for c.l.p so quickly!
>

Yes, with your presence has added one more TROLL to this newsgroup. We
don't need you. Go back and ruin your java newsgroup.

And FYI, I am NOT the only one who feels this way. The majority of the
non-trolls in this newsgroup feel the same way. I'm just the first one
to speak up in this thread.

I'll let you have the last word. TROLLS always need that to feed their
fragile ego. That's why they're afraid to use their real names or a
non-gmail et.al. address. They're terrified someone will find out who
they really are!

FUP'd to comp.lang.java.programmer, although I know the TROLL will
change it again. Why do you guys even put up with him?


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184331 is a reply to message #184330] Mon, 23 December 2013 20:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Qu0ll is currently offline  Qu0ll
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"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:l9am9u$djb$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...

> I'll let you have the last word.

Let's see if you can keep your word.

> FUP'd to comp.lang.java.programmer

This is typical behaviour of the kind of person I was describing: criticise
and then run, kind of like a guy standing outside a brawl who comes in and
throws one punch and then runs away to avoid repercussions.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184332 is a reply to message #184311] Tue, 24 December 2013 06:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wanja Gayk is currently offline  Wanja Gayk
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In article <l98av6$stk$1(at)dont-email(dot)me>, Jerry Stuckle
(jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net) says...

> We have a good group here. Don't ruin it by making off-topic posts.

So if you'll stop ruining other newsgroups with off-topic posts and full
quotes, we'd be grateful.

This was about ORM-mapping in general and intentionally mentioned "non-
Java ORM" - with the PHP newsgroup included, I hope you're able to count
add 1 and 1 together and comprehend that this means PHP people were
asked their opinion. Your "The author didnt' ask a PHP-Question" thread-
takeover is off topic and I'd be grateful if you stopped this bullshit
now and forever, thanks.

F'up set to the newsgroup where you belong, scorefile adjusted, thank
you.



--
...Alesi's problem was that the back of the car was jumping up and down
dangerously - and I can assure you from having been teammate to
Jean Alesi and knowing what kind of cars that he can pull up with,
when Jean Alesi says that a car is dangerous - it is. [Jonathan Palmer]

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c [message #184333 is a reply to message #184332] Tue, 24 December 2013 08:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 12/24/2013 6:28 AM, the well known TROLL Wanja Gayk wrote:
> In article <l98av6$stk$1(at)dont-email(dot)me>, Jerry Stuckle
> (jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net) says...
>
>> We have a good group here. Don't ruin it by making off-topic posts.
>
> So if you'll stop ruining other newsgroups with off-topic posts and full
> quotes, we'd be grateful.
>
> This was about ORM-mapping in general and intentionally mentioned "non-
> Java ORM" - with the PHP newsgroup included, I hope you're able to count
> add 1 and 1 together and comprehend that this means PHP people were
> asked their opinion. Your "The author didnt' ask a PHP-Question" thread-
> takeover is off topic and I'd be grateful if you stopped this bullshit
> now and forever, thanks.
>
> F'up set to the newsgroup where you belong, scorefile adjusted, thank
> you.
>
>
>

Ah, another well-known TROLL who thinks he knows what belongs in a
newsgroup he never has even looked at. But then I see that's pretty
normal for you, also. And like other trolls, you use a 'nym and free
email address because you're terrified someone will recognize you. I
understand - I would be, too, if I had your history.

But let me see if I can make this so simple even a TROLL can understand
it (probably not - TROLLS are too dense to understand much of anything).
This is for questions about the PHP LANGUAGE, not PHP PRODUCTS. See
the charter for this newsgroup.

So stop the bullshit, TROLL. And fupped back to the TROLL newsgroup,
where you belong.

--
==================
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Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
Re: c [message #184337 is a reply to message #184333] Tue, 24 December 2013 17:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Qu0ll is currently offline  Qu0ll
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"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:l9c3e7$k9d$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...

> Ah, another well-known TROLL who thinks he knows what belongs in a
> newsgroup he never has even looked at. But then I see that's pretty
> normal for you, also. And like other trolls, you use a 'nym and free
> email address because you're terrified someone will recognize you. I
> understand - I would be, too, if I had your history.

So let me get it straight then Jez:

1. Anyone who disagrees with you is a troll.
2. You own c.l.p and you alone decides who posts there and what topics are
acceptable.
3. Anyone who uses Gmail or "free" email services is hiding something and is
a troll.
4. Anyone who chooses not to use their real name is hiding something and is
a troll.
5. You have no issue deciding where follow-ups should go because you know
best and you are more important than anyone else.

So have I got all that right? Anything else?

Here's something you need to understand yourself:

YOU DO NOT OWN THE INTERNET AND YOU DO NOT OWN THE NEWSGROUP.

Just because *you* think something is OT or you don't like their nick or the
fact that they use Gmail does not give you the right to evict them from
*your* newsgroup. The net is FREE as in free-speech and in that there are
no "newsgroup cops" or whatever the hell you think you are.

Of course you are also FREE to express your *opinion*, but you do not in any
way, shape or form have any right to decide who posts or what is posted.

Why? Because...

YOU DO NOT OWN THE INTERNET AND YOU DO NOT OWN THE NEWSGROUP.

May I remind you that this all started because I called you out on your
narcissist complex and troll-ish behaviour where you attempted to force the
entire thread into a newsgroup that *you* deemed more appropriate. Where do
you get off doing that?

As I said a while ago, just post your certificate of ownership of c.l.p and
all this can be put to bed. Don't have one? Then stop it behaving as
though you do.

BTW:

YOU DO NOT OWN THE INTERNET AND YOU DO NOT OWN THE NEWSGROUP.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]
Re: c [message #184338 is a reply to message #184337] Tue, 24 December 2013 19:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Graham Hobbs is currently offline  Graham Hobbs
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On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 09:35:45 +1100, "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com>
wrote:

> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:l9c3e7$k9d$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...
>
>> Ah, another well-known TROLL who thinks he knows what belongs in a
>> newsgroup he never has even looked at. But then I see that's pretty
>> normal for you, also. And like other trolls, you use a 'nym and free
>> email address because you're terrified someone will recognize you. I
>> understand - I would be, too, if I had your history.
>
> So let me get it straight then Jez:
>
> 1. Anyone who disagrees with you is a troll.
> 2. You own c.l.p and you alone decides who posts there and what topics are
> acceptable.
> 3. Anyone who uses Gmail or "free" email services is hiding something and is
> a troll.
> 4. Anyone who chooses not to use their real name is hiding something and is
> a troll.
> 5. You have no issue deciding where follow-ups should go because you know
> best and you are more important than anyone else.
>
> So have I got all that right? Anything else?
>
> Here's something you need to understand yourself:
>
> YOU DO NOT OWN THE INTERNET AND YOU DO NOT OWN THE NEWSGROUP.
>
> Just because *you* think something is OT or you don't like their nick or the
> fact that they use Gmail does not give you the right to evict them from
> *your* newsgroup. The net is FREE as in free-speech and in that there are
> no "newsgroup cops" or whatever the hell you think you are.
>
> Of course you are also FREE to express your *opinion*, but you do not in any
> way, shape or form have any right to decide who posts or what is posted.
>
> Why? Because...
>
> YOU DO NOT OWN THE INTERNET AND YOU DO NOT OWN THE NEWSGROUP.
>
> May I remind you that this all started because I called you out on your
> narcissist complex and troll-ish behaviour where you attempted to force the
> entire thread into a newsgroup that *you* deemed more appropriate. Where do
> you get off doing that?
>
> As I said a while ago, just post your certificate of ownership of c.l.p and
> all this can be put to bed. Don't have one? Then stop it behaving as
> though you do.
>
> BTW:
>
> YOU DO NOT OWN THE INTERNET AND YOU DO NOT OWN THE NEWSGROUP.
---
Hello qu0ll,

Just browsing a couple of c.l.p threads I find the likes of Michael
Vilain, Jerry Stuckle, Christof Michael Becker, Denis McMahon, Tim
Streater, others .. you are simply 'Queue you zero el el'.

Is there a reason you don't use your real name?

Graham Hobbs
Re: c [message #184339 is a reply to message #184338] Wed, 25 December 2013 00:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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On 12/24/2013 7:35 PM, Graham Hobbs wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 09:35:45 +1100, "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com>
> wrote:
>
>> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:l9c3e7$k9d$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...
>>
>>> Ah, another well-known TROLL who thinks he knows what belongs in a
>>> newsgroup he never has even looked at. But then I see that's pretty
>>> normal for you, also. And like other trolls, you use a 'nym and free
>>> email address because you're terrified someone will recognize you. I
>>> understand - I would be, too, if I had your history.
>>
>> So let me get it straight then Jez:
>>
>> 1. Anyone who disagrees with you is a troll.
>> 2. You own c.l.p and you alone decides who posts there and what topics are
>> acceptable.
>> 3. Anyone who uses Gmail or "free" email services is hiding something and is
>> a troll.
>> 4. Anyone who chooses not to use their real name is hiding something and is
>> a troll.
>> 5. You have no issue deciding where follow-ups should go because you know
>> best and you are more important than anyone else.
>>
>> So have I got all that right? Anything else?
>>
>> Here's something you need to understand yourself:
>>
>> YOU DO NOT OWN THE INTERNET AND YOU DO NOT OWN THE NEWSGROUP.
>>
>> Just because *you* think something is OT or you don't like their nick or the
>> fact that they use Gmail does not give you the right to evict them from
>> *your* newsgroup. The net is FREE as in free-speech and in that there are
>> no "newsgroup cops" or whatever the hell you think you are.
>>
>> Of course you are also FREE to express your *opinion*, but you do not in any
>> way, shape or form have any right to decide who posts or what is posted.
>>
>> Why? Because...
>>
>> YOU DO NOT OWN THE INTERNET AND YOU DO NOT OWN THE NEWSGROUP.
>>
>> May I remind you that this all started because I called you out on your
>> narcissist complex and troll-ish behaviour where you attempted to force the
>> entire thread into a newsgroup that *you* deemed more appropriate. Where do
>> you get off doing that?
>>
>> As I said a while ago, just post your certificate of ownership of c.l.p and
>> all this can be put to bed. Don't have one? Then stop it behaving as
>> though you do.
>>
>> BTW:
>>
>> YOU DO NOT OWN THE INTERNET AND YOU DO NOT OWN THE NEWSGROUP.
> ---
> Hello qu0ll,
>
> Just browsing a couple of c.l.p threads I find the likes of Michael
> Vilain, Jerry Stuckle, Christof Michael Becker, Denis McMahon, Tim
> Streater, others .. you are simply 'Queue you zero el el'.
>
> Is there a reason you don't use your real name?
>
> Graham Hobbs
>

Graham, haven't you learned by now? Trolls NEVER use their real names.
They're too chicken to let anyone know who they really are.


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
Re: c [message #184340 is a reply to message #184338] Wed, 25 December 2013 01:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Qu0ll is currently offline  Qu0ll
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"Graham Hobbs" wrote in message
news:j1akb9d0q74ruod75e30fca2f9ronqpqo7(at)4ax(dot)com...

> Just browsing a couple of c.l.p threads I find the likes of Michael
> Vilain, Jerry Stuckle, Christof Michael Becker, Denis McMahon, Tim
> Streater, others .. you are simply 'Queue you zero el el'.

Right, so you also agree that only those who have posted regularly in one
particular group have either the right to post there or comment on other
posts? Or that newcomers can be treated as though they are second-class
citizens? What kind of group is this exactly? Because I am not aware of
such rules in any *other* group!

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]
Re: c [message #184341 is a reply to message #184333] Wed, 25 December 2013 04:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Qu0ll is currently offline  Qu0ll
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"lipska the kat" wrote in message
news:tsSdnflq-emnPSfPnZ2dnUVZ7tOdnZ2d(at)bt(dot)com...

>>> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:l9c3e7$k9d$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...
>>>
>>>> Ah, another well-known TROLL who thinks he knows what belongs in a
>>>> newsgroup he never has even looked at.
>
> <snip>
>
>> Graham, haven't you learned by now? Trolls NEVER use their real names.
>> They're too chicken to let anyone know who they really are.
>>
>
> This is absolute nonsense.
>
> I have no idea who Qu0ll is, I don't even know if we have disagreed in the
> past, however, given her/his/its past contribution to this group he/she/it
> is certainly not a troll.
>
> The one doing the trolling here is you "Jerry Stuckle" ... and as for
> names, people have been using pseudonyms on Usenet for as long as Usenet
> has been here so the whole 'real name' argument is just a load more
> bollocks. Besides, I'm more than happy to hide my real identity from
> nutters like you ... have you ever heard of an 'internet footprint'?
>
> I judge people by the value of their contributions, not their names so
> AFAIAC "Jerry Stuckle" (you're kidding right) you can bugger off back to
> c.l.p. You won't be missed.

I took the liberty of forwarding your reply lipska to c.l.p because Troll
Jerry probably never ventures outside of "his" newsgroup.

What you say is absolutely correct (except the part where we possibly
haven't disagreed!).

I wouldn't mind being labelled a "troll" if I actually engaged in trollish
behaviour. But objecting to a self-appointed "newsgroup cop" who attempts
to hijack threads and shove them into the groups *he* thinks they belong is
most definitely *not* trollish. In fact, it's *anti* trollish. His
whinging about free email addresses, nick names, no previous posts etc. is
nothing but a diversion from his real agenda of censoring c.l.p so that only
people *he* approves of and only subjects *he* approves of can be posted
there.

As I have said many times now, there is always (at least) one such
self-appointed "cop" in every group. Most would call them trolls. To him
(and them) I simply ROFL.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]
[EOD] Re: c [message #184342 is a reply to message #184341] Wed, 25 December 2013 05:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wanja Gayk is currently offline  Wanja Gayk
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In article <7YWdnVHsrJM_NSfPnZ2dnUVZ_rCdnZ2d(at)westnet(dot)com(dot)au>, Qu0ll
(Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com) says...

> I wouldn't mind being labelled a "troll" if I actually engaged in trollish
> behaviour. But objecting to a self-appointed "newsgroup cop" who
> attempts to hijack threads and shove them into the groups *he* thinks
> they belong is most definitely *not* trollish.

Please notice you're have allowed yourself to be dragged into the
troll's game by responding more often than necessary, which is what
allowed the troll to hijack the thread in the first place.
I personally don't have the greatest trouble with someone putting a
troll right once and ignoring him thereafter, but this one is going on
for too long in my opinion, and hopefully in yours too.
May I, with no further argument, request an EOD here, please?

Thank you in advance,


--
...Alesi's problem was that the back of the car was jumping up and down
dangerously - and I can assure you from having been teammate to
Jean Alesi and knowing what kind of cars that he can pull up with,
when Jean Alesi says that a car is dangerous - it is. [Jonathan Palmer]

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news(at)netfront(dot)net ---
Re: [EOD] Re: c [message #184343 is a reply to message #184342] Wed, 25 December 2013 07:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Qu0ll is currently offline  Qu0ll
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"Wanja Gayk" wrote in message news:MPG(dot)2d24ce992be18af18(at)202(dot)177(dot)16(dot)121...

> Please notice you're have allowed yourself to be dragged into the
> troll's game by responding more often than necessary, which is what
> allowed the troll to hijack the thread in the first place.
> I personally don't have the greatest trouble with someone putting a
> troll right once and ignoring him thereafter, but this one is going on
> for too long in my opinion, and hopefully in yours too.
> May I, with no further argument, request an EOD here, please?

Well said. EOD.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]
Re: [EOD] Re: c [message #184344 is a reply to message #184343] Wed, 25 December 2013 07:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
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On 25/12/13 12:29, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Wanja Gayk" wrote in message news:MPG(dot)2d24ce992be18af18(at)202(dot)177(dot)16(dot)121...
>> Please notice you're have allowed yourself to be dragged into the
>> troll's game by responding more often than necessary, which is what
>> allowed the troll to hijack the thread in the first place.
>> I personally don't have the greatest trouble with someone putting a
>> troll right once and ignoring him thereafter, but this one is going on
>> for too long in my opinion, and hopefully in yours too.
>> May I, with no further argument, request an EOD here, please?
>
> Well said. EOD.
>
> --
> And loving it,
>
> -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
> _________________________________________________
> Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com
> [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]

since the main protagonists are already plonked here, I only get to see
the reactions.

The answer is simple, plonk the protagonists yourself.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
Re: c [message #184345 is a reply to message #184340] Wed, 25 December 2013 09:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Graham Hobbs is currently offline  Graham Hobbs
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On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 17:46:54 +1100, "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com>
wrote:

> "Graham Hobbs" wrote in message
> news:j1akb9d0q74ruod75e30fca2f9ronqpqo7(at)4ax(dot)com...
>
>> Just browsing a couple of c.l.p threads I find the likes of Michael
>> Vilain, Jerry Stuckle, Christof Michael Becker, Denis McMahon, Tim
>> Streater, others .. you are simply 'Queue you zero el el'.
>
> Right, so you also agree that only those who have posted regularly in one
> particular group have either the right to post there or comment on other
> posts? Or that newcomers can be treated as though they are second-class
> citizens? What kind of group is this exactly? Because I am not aware of
> such rules in any *other* group!
---
You did not answer my question. Was it unreasonable .. what is your
name?
Graham
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184346 is a reply to message #184311] Wed, 25 December 2013 12:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arved Sandstrom is currently offline  Arved Sandstrom
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On 12/22/2013 03:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>
> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to
> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
> libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
> business code.
>
> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if they've
> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.
>
> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
> * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
> * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006)
> * Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-)
>
> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate,
> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>
>
> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did you
> like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a flame war,
> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used them.
>
> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>
> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of changes
> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>
> Thanks for your consideration,
> Daniel.

Java ORMs:

Hibernate - but not recently, and even when I used it last mostly in its
first JPA incarnation, and not much. Last use of native Hibernate many
years ago;

Straight JDBC - still quite a lot. Not an ORM, as you say;

iBatis/MyBatis - a fair bit;

TopLink/TopLink Essentials (TLE)/EclipseLink - a lot. Native for first
two + JPA, JPA through EclipseLink.

My ideas about ORMs have been informed a fair bit by using them in other
languages, so although I won't blur the issue by mentioning them, their
use will influence my opinions.

*Industry* use of the various Java ORMs above: native Hibernate a long
time ago, Hibernate JPA just a little, native TopLink a long time ago,
TLE and EclipseLink a great deal for JPA. Non-ORM: straight JDBC a lot
and since it got invented.

I prefer JPA as an ORM API. I have no strong thoughts on Hibernate JPA
versus EclipseLink JPA...I had to settle on one and chose
TLE/EclipseLink. I have investigated JDO - it is more general than JPA
insofar as it doesn't require a RDBMS datastore - but no industry
projects I've been involved with (in 15 years or more) have been
anything but RDBMS.

JPA disadvantages (IMHO): relatively high bar to entry...not that simple
to use well, and especially now with JPA 2 so many features that a
novice can get discombobulated: IOW, not simple.

JPA advantages: pretty much the reverse of the immediate above -
efficient and powerful if you know what you are doing. "Knowing what you
are doing" means not relying on IDEs, understanding lifetimes, and
knowing what features you should not usually use.

If I had to not use JPA I'd use straight JDBC, and do.

AHS
--
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign:
that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
-- Jonathan Swift
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184382 is a reply to message #184320] Sun, 29 December 2013 22:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arne Vajhøj is currently offline  Arne Vajhøj
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On 12/22/2013 4:34 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 4:20 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/22/2013 4:09 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2013 4:04 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:47 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> > On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> >> On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> >>> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>>> >>>> Hey everyone,
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various
>>>> >>>> ORMs,
>>>> >>>> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to
>>>> >>>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>>>> >>>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
>>>> >>>> libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>>>> >>>> business code.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if
>>>> >>>> they've
>>>> >>>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they
>>>> >>>> use.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>>> >>>> * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>>> >>>> * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around
>>>> >>>> 2006)
>>>> >>>> * Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after
>>>> >>>> Hibernate,
>>>> >>>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what
>>>> >>>> did
>>>> >>>> you
>>>> >>>> like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a flame
>>>> >>>> war,
>>>> >>>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used
>>>> >>>> them.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off
>>>> >>>> applications to
>>>> >>>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of
>>>> >>>> changes
>>>> >>>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Is there a PHP question in there? I don't see one...
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
>>>> >> ORM's could be included in discussion.
>>>> >
>>>> > I still don't see a PHP question here. I see some product questions -
>>>> > which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications.
>>>> >
>>>> > Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate for a
>>>> > PHP language newsgroup.
>>>> >
>>>> > But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups and
>>>> > think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup.
>>>>
>>>> ORM's are not applications. They are libraries.
>>>>
>>>> And since it is question asking for comparison, then a group
>>>> for a specific library is not a good choice.
>>>>
>>>> Instead a group with people with experience and interest in
>>>> different ways of database access from PHP is needed.
>>>>
>>>> comp.lang.php does not seem that far fetched.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously comp.lang.php.databaseaccess or
>>>> comp.lang.php.databaseaccess.orm
>>>> would be even better if such exists.
>>>
>>> Yes, an ORM-related newsgroup would be more appropriate. There you have
>>> people who know the advantages and disadvantages of various ORM's.
>>
>> ORM's are language specific. So it would need to be a PHP ORM group
>> to cover PHP.
>>
>> Does one exist?
>>
>>> Few, if any, in the language-related newsgroups will have used an ORM,
>>> and if they have, they have very limited experience.
>>
>> That depends on the language.
>>
>> In languages like Java and C# it would be >90% that have used an ORM.
>>
>> It is probably much less in PHP as ORM's are not as widely used
>> in the PHP world.
>>
>> But I suspect that Daniel even may be interested in knowing more
>> about why it is so.
>
> If you want, you can talk all you want about it in c.l.j.p. But this
> does not belong in c.l.p.

So you keep saying.

But just saying it does not make it correct.

I just googled and found the original comp.lang.php charter
from 2002.

I says:

"Since database connectivity is a large part of PHP, it will
be considered topical in comp.lang.php."

Unless you have changed the charter since then (Google can not
find that, but that does not prove that it does not exist), then
that means that ORM in PHP is on topic for comp.lang.php.

Arne
Re: c [message #184384 is a reply to message #184333] Sun, 29 December 2013 22:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arne Vajhøj is currently offline  Arne Vajhøj
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On 12/24/2013 8:49 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> But let me see if I can make this so simple even a TROLL can understand
> it (probably not - TROLLS are too dense to understand much of anything).
> This is for questions about the PHP LANGUAGE, not PHP PRODUCTS. See
> the charter for this newsgroup.

The only charter Google can find say that database connectivity from PHP
(which is what a PHP ORM is) is on topic.

What charter are you referring to?

Arne
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184385 is a reply to message #184382] Sun, 29 December 2013 22:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Qu0ll is currently offline  Qu0ll
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"Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message
news:52c0eca1$0$300$14726298(at)news(dot)sunsite(dot)dk...

>> If you want, you can talk all you want about it in c.l.j.p. But this
>> does not belong in c.l.p.
>
> So you keep saying.
>
> But just saying it does not make it correct.
>
> I just googled and found the original comp.lang.php charter
> from 2002.
>
> I says:
>
> "Since database connectivity is a large part of PHP, it will
> be considered topical in comp.lang.php."
>
> Unless you have changed the charter since then (Google can not
> find that, but that does not prove that it does not exist), then
> that means that ORM in PHP is on topic for comp.lang.php.

No, no, no Arne! Don't throw facts at a troll, they do not know how to
handle them!

I found this which I think is a more recent c.l.p charter and is the one
that's obviously in effect now:

"Posts are considered topical for comp.lang.php if they relate to PHP
directly or indirectly but only if Jerry Stuckle approves of either the
post, the content or the poster.

Note: Jerry (who is the official owner of c.l.p) does *NOT* permit any posts
which have any of the following attributes:

1. They are posted by someone who has never posted in c.l.p before.
2. The poster uses a Gmail address.
3. The poster chooses not to publish their actual name.
4. The poster or post makes Jerry look like a fool.

Please email Jerry directly if any of this is not clear."

Unfortunately point (4) results in most posts being declared spam by said
owner.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour(at)gmail(dot)com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184386 is a reply to message #184330] Sun, 29 December 2013 23:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arne Vajhøj is currently offline  Arne Vajhøj
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On 12/23/2013 7:59 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 12/23/2013 6:11 PM, the well-known TROLL Qu0ll wrote:
>> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:l99c07$fvi$1(at)dont-email(dot)me...
>>
>>> People with PHP questions are welcome. But we have enough TROLLS
>>> without you. You do not know the group, the history or the members.
>>> But you know better than the regular readers what is best for this
>>> newsgroup.
>>
>> There's one in every newsgroup. The one who thinks they own it. The
>> one who thinks their opinion is more important than any other. The one
>> who thinks they have the right to say who posts and who doesn't post.
>> The one who treats newbies like they have committed a federal offence.
>> The one who spends more time picking up on grammar or capitalisation
>> than actually helping others. And the one whose opinion of themselves is
>> of the rock star of all rock stars.
>>
>> Thank you Jerry for putting up your hand and letting newcomers know who
>> this person is for c.l.p so quickly!
>
> Yes, with your presence has added one more TROLL to this newsgroup. We
> don't need you. Go back and ruin your java newsgroup.

> FUP'd to comp.lang.java.programmer, although I know the TROLL will
> change it again. Why do you guys even put up with him?

Because he does not troll.

He is a bit optimistic about the future for JavaFX, but that is
not trolling.

Feel free to google yourself.

Arne
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184387 is a reply to message #184385] Sun, 29 December 2013 23:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arne Vajhøj is currently offline  Arne Vajhøj
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On 12/29/2013 10:54 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message
> news:52c0eca1$0$300$14726298(at)news(dot)sunsite(dot)dk...
>
>>> If you want, you can talk all you want about it in c.l.j.p. But this
>>> does not belong in c.l.p.
>>
>> So you keep saying.
>>
>> But just saying it does not make it correct.
>>
>> I just googled and found the original comp.lang.php charter
>> from 2002.
>>
>> I says:
>>
>> "Since database connectivity is a large part of PHP, it will
>> be considered topical in comp.lang.php."
>>
>> Unless you have changed the charter since then (Google can not
>> find that, but that does not prove that it does not exist), then
>> that means that ORM in PHP is on topic for comp.lang.php.
>
> No, no, no Arne! Don't throw facts at a troll, they do not know how to
> handle them!
>
> I found this which I think is a more recent c.l.p charter and is the one
> that's obviously in effect now:
>
> "Posts are considered topical for comp.lang.php if they relate to PHP
> directly or indirectly but only if Jerry Stuckle approves of either the
> post, the content or the poster.
>
> Note: Jerry (who is the official owner of c.l.p) does *NOT* permit any
> posts which have any of the following attributes:
>
> 1. They are posted by someone who has never posted in c.l.p before.
> 2. The poster uses a Gmail address.
> 3. The poster chooses not to publish their actual name.
> 4. The poster or post makes Jerry look like a fool.
>
> Please email Jerry directly if any of this is not clear."
>
> Unfortunately point (4) results in most posts being declared spam by
> said owner.

Please don't take a job within international diplomacy.

:-)

Arne
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184388 is a reply to message #184321] Sun, 29 December 2013 23:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arne Vajhøj is currently offline  Arne Vajhøj
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On 12/22/2013 7:11 PM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> That leaves many ORM utilities as too enormous, too complex, too slow,
> and still a poor fit for SQL. I see ORM as potentially being an
> excellent fit for document stores but I have little experience with
> those.

????

What would be the point of an ORM that maps to a relational data model
in connection with a non-relational database?

Arne
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184389 is a reply to message #184319] Sun, 29 December 2013 23:17 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Arne Vajhøj is currently offline  Arne Vajhøj
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On 12/22/2013 4:26 PM, Marcel Müller wrote:
> On 22.12.13 20.05, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
>> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to there
>> limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve problems
>> that I've always felt should have been solved by the core libraries.
>> Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core business code.
>
> First of all you need to mention what ORMs are designed for. They are
> intended to make SQL databases suitable for OO programming style and/or
> non-relational data models. At the end OO expressions are turned into
> SQL and then to an execution plan.
> From that you can see that there is exactly one thing superfluous in
> this scenario: SQL. It is the bottleneck where all expressions must fit
> to. But it does not add any functionality, quite the contrary. It is
> just a emulation level for compatibility, like a SATA adapter enables a
> SATA drive to be used with an IDE port.
>
> You see, I am not really a friend of ORM. If a relational data model
> does not fit your needs, you first should consider to use a non
> relational database, rather than to normalize the data model to fit into
> a relational DB, and use an ORM to hide that from the application layer.

Yes and no.

If you could get non-relational databases with same transactional
support, same tools, same vendor support etc..

And if all access to the database is OO based.

Then that would be obvious.

But the non-relational databases has not reached the same maturity level
(as a summary term for the above) as relational databases.

And it is common to have the same databases used by modern OO based
software also to be used by non-OO legacy software (like 20 year
old COBOL programs).

> ORMs are known to slow things down. I don't think that this is true in
> general. But the ORM layer makes some trivial looking expressions
> amazingly complex. So it is not that easy for the programmer to estimate
> the complexity of a code block, without knowledge about the entire ORM
> layer and the base data model in SQL. In fact I have redesigned many
> code parts because of this.

Oh - I have seen my share of that.

It should be mandatory for developers writing code using ORM to do some
testing with the logging of actual SQL statements executed turned on. It
reveals what is going on without having to know so much about the inside
of the ORM.

> Of course, if you are stuck with an SQL DB for some reason and you need
> to adapt to an OO application layer ORM might be a choice. But if the
> data model in the DB is not intended for ORM usage, you won't get happy,
> because there are almost always properties of the data model that are
> not correctly modeled in SQL.

It seems as if very large parts of the Java, .NET and Ruby worlds
are able to make it work.

Arne
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