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I would like mathml support [message #13345] Tue, 30 September 2003 10:30 Go to next message
math_adm is currently offline  math_adm   France
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Hi

I would like mathml support to be included. This would be so great. FudForum would be the only forum that supports this.

Of course, editing is a client problem (mozilla has an editor (preview) written in javascript). Displaying is a matter of standards: recent versions of mozilla will display it natively while IE has a plugin for this purpose (and, IIRC, M$ has signed something with the mathplayer company).

So what is really needed (I think) is a FudCode extension to specify that a MathML object is to be included. And those who have maple will even be able to use copy & paste !

What do you think about this idea ?

Regards,

FD
Re: I would like mathml support [message #13355 is a reply to message #13345] Tue, 30 September 2003 19:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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No idea what it does and how it could be useful to majority of FUDforum users.

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Re: I would like mathml support [message #13359 is a reply to message #13355] Wed, 01 October 2003 02:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
math_adm is currently offline  math_adm   France
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MathML is an XML-based extension to HTML to allow the display of maths formulas in a web page (cf www.w3c.org/mathml IIRC).

This way you can cut/copy/paste math formulas to and from scientific calculation software, index formulas like any other text in a web page for search engines etc. OpenOffice is (kind of) compatible with MathML for example. Maple too.

As to the interest to fudforum users: I would be deeply interested Smile In fact, I'm a math teacher in an engineer school, and I installed fudforum on the school's web site to answer questions that students might have. And writing formulas in ASCII isn't exactly that easy or nice Smile Now maybe that would be useful to someone else, don't you think ?
Re: I would like mathml support [message #13449 is a reply to message #13359] Mon, 13 October 2003 21:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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Sure, but while it maybe of use the Math community an average forum user has little to gain from this functionality. I do not know that most browsers support it.

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Re: I would like mathml support [message #13498 is a reply to message #13449] Tue, 14 October 2003 10:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
math_adm is currently offline  math_adm   France
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Not only the math community, but all scientific community. Even physicians and others often need to write a formula as part of the message body. And they usually revert to using an ugly unprecise ascii description.

Usually, I tend to think that computer scientists only design systems for themselves, who don't need to write integrals all the time Very Happy

Now, fudforum would be the only forum to support it, putting it well ahead its competitors.

As to browsers, mozilla/netscape support mathml natively. There is a "standard" plugin for IE (mathplayer IIRC), and MathML can be converted to images on-the-fly (there are opensource systems for that) or flash. The main problem is really to have an mathml-enabled editor. All implementations of this I've ever seen was using a java applet. (Not quite in fact: there is a prototype for mozilla written in javascript).

If this is really too much work and you think it's not worth the trouble, then nevermind, it's great to have this forum system anyway Smile. But maybe others can try to help me convince you Smile
Re: I would like mathml support [message #13502 is a reply to message #13498] Tue, 14 October 2003 11:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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Sounds like a lot of work, for a very specific use. I'd say it be simpler to save formulas images in the 1st place and insert/attach them to forum messages.

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Re: I would like mathml support [message #13503 is a reply to message #13502] Tue, 14 October 2003 11:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
math_adm is currently offline  math_adm   France
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I agree its lots of work.

Saving the formulas to images simply doesn't work for students who need to ask a question to the teacher. I mean I'm able to use tools like TeX and ghostscript to produce DVI/PS/PDF/JPG/GIF/whatever, but the students won't, with all the trouble this is. They like equation editors however. Not to speak about formulas being part of the message (not just appendices like an attachment).

Anyway it's not that important, just keep this in mind when you're planning the next mega upgrade Very Happy
Re: I would like mathml support [message #13505 is a reply to message #13503] Tue, 14 October 2003 11:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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Most office suits have equation editors etc... and most of those office suit allow the documents to be exported to images. Worst case scenario one could always take a screen shot Wink

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Re: I would like mathml support [message #22396 is a reply to message #13345] Tue, 01 February 2005 06:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous   Poland
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I must agree with math_adm. As a student of computer science with advaced math courses I would find this feature very helpful. I believe you should reconsider adding this feature for the sake of scientific communities.
Re: I would like mathml support [message #22397 is a reply to message #13345] Tue, 01 February 2005 07:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous   France
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Computer scientists have their own features for presenting code already implemented, this isn't fair ;) Let other sciences have their own features :)

One might want to check ASCIIMath Editor...

http://www1.chapman.edu/~jipsen/mathml/asciimatheditor/

It reads either latex syntax or simplified math expressions written in pure ascii and produces MathML.

What could be done is implement a new tag, say [Math] to denote formulas written in ASCIIMAth syntax. Then, at page presentation time, the forum could convert this into a MathML object via ASCIIMath.

Or maybe something more general : define a new tag [object=type (options)] to allow embedding of an arbitrary object. Then the types supported inside a particular forum would be declared by the administrator (MathML, flash, VML, some strange XML dialect to represent molecules for chemistry etc.) along with the script used to process them at page reading time.

That way there would not be support for MathML where it isn't needed (thus speeding things up) and the admin could allow objects on an per-type basis.

The next step would be to allow a plug-in system for graphical editors (equation editors in my mind), written in javascript.

What do you think ?
Re : Re: I would like mathml support [message #22398 is a reply to message #22397] Tue, 01 February 2005 07:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
math_adm is currently offline  math_adm   France
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Sorry i thought I was logged in. The last message is mine.
Re: I would like mathml support [message #22434 is a reply to message #13345] Thu, 03 February 2005 09:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
filo is currently offline  filo   Poland
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Yes, indeed the direction drawn by you is far the most flexible, but for today I would rather think about simple hack adding to FUDCode "[Math]" objects in which mathml would be accepted. Users can generate their mathml using third party applications and scripts. http://www.w3.org/Math/implementations.html

As far as I remember some headers should be also changed to make mathml work. (Does it work in non UTF-8 encoding?)
Re: I would like mathml support [message #22436 is a reply to message #22434] Thu, 03 February 2005 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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This seems like a very limited use functionality for me. if you want to submit a patch I'd certainly review it and consider it.

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Re: I would like mathml support [message #22445 is a reply to message #13345] Thu, 03 February 2005 10:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JamesS is currently offline  JamesS   United States
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For this to work properly FUDforum would have to convert to an XHTML doctype. Then the asciimath javascript would just have to be added to the post template. I doubt the patch would be too difficult to write but I certainly don't have the time to write it. It really would be nice though; I think a forum that supports MathML would make a lot of people happy because there isn't any decent way to post questions and answers for such things.
Re: I would like mathml support [message #22842 is a reply to message #13345] Fri, 18 February 2005 06:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
filo is currently offline  filo   Poland
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It turned out to be harder than I thought. For browsers to interpret mathml in html the document must be a well-formed xhtml 1.1. That means I have to rewrite whole theme in xml manner.

What is more forum must send "content-type" diffrent for gecko and IE. Luckyly it's not a big deal.

There are some cons of xml. For example gecko doesn't support incremental loading of xml documents yet.

Stay tuned - I'll inform you about my struggle Smile
Re: I would like mathml support [message #22843 is a reply to message #13345] Fri, 18 February 2005 09:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JamesS is currently offline  JamesS   United States
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Actually, if you are going to do it correctly then there is only one content-type you can send. In fact, XHTML 1.0 is the only definition that technically supports sending XHTML as text/html. For my full thoughts on the matter -- http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/comments.php?article=167

That being said, I am excited to hear that you are undertaking the massive task of converting FUDforum to XHTML.
Re: I would like mathml support [message #22844 is a reply to message #22843] Fri, 18 February 2005 09:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
filo is currently offline  filo   Poland
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But IE doesn't support application/xhtml+xml correctly.

http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/03/19/dive-into-xml.html
Re: I would like mathml support [message #22848 is a reply to message #13345] Fri, 18 February 2005 11:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JamesS is currently offline  JamesS   United States
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I know. In fact, it doesn't support it at all. So, if you want to support it you will need to fall back to XHTML 1.0 because it technically allows sending as text/html. Heck, even if you want to comply fully with XHTML 1.0 you have to supply the xml prolog but the prolog throws IE in to quirks mode which screws up its handling of CSS.
Re: I would like mathml support [message #22877 is a reply to message #22848] Fri, 18 February 2005 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
filo is currently offline  filo   Poland
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I need XHTML 1.1 for MathML. I'll try the hack described in xml.com.
Re: I would like mathml support [message #23281 is a reply to message #13345] Thu, 10 March 2005 16:22 Go to previous message
Anonymous   Switzerland
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better do a latex support than mathml. latex math mode beats everything. some guys did something like this for phpbb.
just a thought...
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