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New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13576] Sat, 18 October 2003 00:22 Go to next message
esm2002 is currently offline  esm2002   United States
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new graphics/icon Cool
new css ( finally fixed that "moving" rollover )

but I do not like the cluttered look on the left. It is now much harder to read the information. before I could just glance at it and see. now I have to pick out the topic from the poster information. I sure hope this is a configurable feature so that I can move it the right where nothing is.

http://fud.prohost.org/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=814

http://fud.prohost.org/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=815
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Gene
"The older I get, the more I admire competence, just simple competence in any field from adultery to zoology."
Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13577 is a reply to message #13576] Sat, 18 October 2003 01:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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The forum listing on the front page I do not find problematic, only 1 row was added (moderators) and IMHO they are clearly identifiable.

As for the topic listing, I dunno...

The information below the thread name is not critical or essential, it merely indicates the name of the topic author & the name of creation. In all honesty we could probably do away with that information all together... I was hoping that the smaller font would seperate it from topic names, but dunno...
I guess that one place were suggestions on improvments are welcome Smile

P.S. What do you mean move to the right?


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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13581 is a reply to message #13576] Sat, 18 October 2003 12:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bjorne is currently offline  Bjorne   Sweden
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kewl! Where can I get it Very Happy
Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13582 is a reply to message #13581] Sat, 18 October 2003 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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For now CVS only, when it is more stable I'll make an RC1 release.

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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13586 is a reply to message #13577] Sat, 18 October 2003 13:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
esm2002 is currently offline  esm2002   United States
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Ilia wrote on Sat, 18 October 2003 01:25

The forum listing on the front page I do not find problematic, only 1 row was added (moderators) and IMHO they are clearly identifiable.

As for the topic listing, I dunno...

The information below the thread name is not critical or essential, it merely indicates the name of the topic author & the name of creation. In all honesty we could probably do away with that information all together... I was hoping that the smaller font would seperate it from topic names, but dunno...
I guess that one place were suggestions on improvments are welcome Smile

P.S. What do you mean move to the right?


we have had a few discussion on display presentation! Very Happy

Yes, it is only one line on the front page but it makes a difference. Kind of like the guy carrying two bricks who says "if I can carry two bricks, I can carry one more." A little later he then says "if I can carry three bricks, I can carry one more." A little later he says "if I can carry four bricks, I can carry one more." Prettry soon, it will be just one brick too many. Well, you get the picture.

Yes, the info is clearly identifiable. But I think it is just "one brick too many" and causes a cluttered look. And the thing about it is that the moderator info tends to be useless info. I am sure there are situations where it is useful. But in my experience it is just data and not info as the user doesn't know what to do with it.

Here is what I was referring to about empty space to the right.

This empty exists in both the front page and topic view. This is on a 19 in monitor with a 1280x960 setting. Maybe a little larger than most but I put the search bar on the left otherwise I would have had even more empty space to the right.

For me the front page is a no-brainer: the third line clutters up an otherwise clean look. It could be moved (back) to the right with little or no impact.

However, the topic view is not so easy. It looks like you have moved the poster's information from the left to the top. If messages tend to be short, then having the poster's info on the left will cause less wasted space. If messages tend to be long, then having the poster's info at the top will cause less wasted space.

Just an opinion on this, but it is my impression that messages tend to be shorter rather than longer and thus the placement on the left of the posters info would be the more efficient.

And we read from left to right as opposed to top to bottom.

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Gene
"The older I get, the more I admire competence, just simple competence in any field from adultery to zoology."

[Updated on: Wed, 22 October 2003 14:25]

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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13587 is a reply to message #13586] Sat, 18 October 2003 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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Although screen resolutions are slowly getting bigger most people still are in the 800x600 or 1024x768 zone. Even so now a days many have various things like IM clients & other things taking up screen space preventing the browser (content window) from taking the full screen.
So, what may look fine on big resolution is certainly not fine on a smaller one.


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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13589 is a reply to message #13587] Sat, 18 October 2003 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
esm2002 is currently offline  esm2002   United States
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well, I could have predicted that response from you. I added my monitor information knowing that you would take the bait and use that as your reason for making the changes. it sounds reasonable but it is just not the case. Had you started out that way a couple of years ago, you maybe could have made that argument. But screen are larger now because people want to see more.

I recently bought a Dell computer for my daughter and ex-wife. It sold for $499 and came with a 17 in monitor and with the resolution set at 1024. I visited with them last week. And even my ex, who would admit to being a ditsy blonde AND computer illiterate, knew how to maximize the browser window and cover up any other tasks that were running.

And that is the cheapest model they sell ( I did get a bigger hard drive, cd burner and dvd player of them ). So if they are selling their entry level computer with a 17 in monitor what do you suppose their higher-end models come with?

Well, nothing like dumbing-down FUDForum to work with the lowest common denominator.

One thing I can count on: if I suggest an alternate treatment for something, it will entrench you in your position. I think it is hilarious. Laughing

I think these design changes are a step in the wrong direction for FUDForum
( this comment alone will ensure their permanent adoption by you Very Happy ).
And that makes me sad. Sad


Gene
"The older I get, the more I admire competence, just simple competence in any field from adultery to zoology."
Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13591 is a reply to message #13589] Sat, 18 October 2003 17:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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Heh...

Now a days few people run their browser full screen due to various plugins etc... and often just the need/want to use portions of the screen for other uses. Personally, I amost never run my browser full screen on a 1280x1204 resolution preferring to keep it at aproximate size of 900*700 or so...

Even if I were to run full screen your own message would take more room then it does now, because ~200 pixels on the side would've been wasted for nothing. End result is that I am able to see more messages on screen and not waste space with trivial information.

More importantly I can now fairly conveniently read the forum on a PDA and other mobile devices where screen space, especially horizontal is a very precious commodity.


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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13595 is a reply to message #13591] Sat, 18 October 2003 22:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
esm2002 is currently offline  esm2002   United States
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Ilia wrote on Sat, 18 October 2003 17:05

Heh...

Now a days few people run their browser full screen due to various plugins etc... and often just the need/want to use portions of the screen for other uses. Personally, I amost never run my browser full screen on a 1280x1204 resolution preferring to keep it at aproximate size of 900*700 or so...




I can make the same kind of generalization, to wit: and most people know how to click the maximize browser button when they need to. but even if they don't maximize the screen, there is still a lot of empty space on the right of a 900x700 screen.


Ilia wrote on Sat, 18 October 2003 17:05

Even if I were to run full screen your own message would take more room then it does now, because ~200 pixels on the side would've been wasted for nothing. End result is that I am able to see more messages on screen and not waste space with trivial information.



Actually, I don't agree with that statement. By moving the stuff from the left to the top, you will always have wasted space to the right of that information. There is actually no wasted space on with the information on the left when the message is relatively short. And I think there are more short messages than there are long messages.

And if you are going to move stuff from the left and move it to the top, you need to do this page that I am typing on because it needs to be a non-standard design just like the others. At least you should be consistent in your design. Don't have some pages with stuff on the left and others where you have moved the left hand stuff to the top.

Ilia wrote on Sat, 18 October 2003 17:05

More importantly I can now fairly conveniently read the forum on a PDA and other mobile devices where screen space, especially horizontal is a very precious commodity.



As for the PDA, I have one and a little space to the left does not make that much difference on a 2.25x3 in screen. and with a couple of clicks I can switch the vertical/horizontal. At any rate, over 99% of all views of FUDForum will be on a standard desktop/laptop. And will remain so for a long time.

Is that what this is all about: we have to suffer a non-standard forum display so you can see FUDForum on your PDA? That sucks.

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Gene
"The older I get, the more I admire competence, just simple competence in any field from adultery to zoology."

[Updated on: Wed, 22 October 2003 14:26]

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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13597 is a reply to message #13595] Sun, 19 October 2003 10:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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Your message has a lot of 'white space' because part of it were images that have no next adjacent to them. That's not terribly common especially considering the size of messages. In most cases the messages only contain text, which nicely takes up all available space horizontally.

The standard design sucks, in most cases is wastes space for trivial information that most people read only once (if at all) and prevents the message (what's important) taking up the entire screen. Personally I find it much easier to read and on the demo forums where I've put 2.6.0 after the initial "oh my something changed" most people got acclimated to the new change and like it very much.


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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13607 is a reply to message #13597] Sun, 19 October 2003 17:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
esm2002 is currently offline  esm2002   United States
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Ilia wrote on Sun, 19 October 2003 10:39

Your message has a lot of 'white space' because part of it were images that have no next adjacent to them. That's not terribly common especially considering the size of messages. In most cases the messages only contain text, which nicely takes up all available space horizontally.



Well, it is about time you commented on that. I kept putting it out there and putting it out there and wondering if you would ever use it, and you finally commented. But once again you just don't see it. So you think the images caused all the white space? NOT. See the images below for how the white space gets created.

Here are the images from a recent message using the non-standard presentation. I present them in your admittedly small 900xwhatever screen. In a larger screen there would be even more wasted space. But I guess in your PDA they would be OK.

There are actually two types of wasted space caused by moving the poster's info to the top. First, the ever present wasted space for the poster's row of info and second, the empty space created and/or accentuated to right of the message itself.

But then you probably don't see that either.

well here is the thread and shown below:
http://fud.prohost.org/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=658&rid=177#msg_368 3



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Gene
"The older I get, the more I admire competence, just simple competence in any field from adultery to zoology."

[Updated on: Wed, 22 October 2003 14:27]

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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13609 is a reply to message #13607] Sun, 19 October 2003 17:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
esm2002 is currently offline  esm2002   United States
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the final two images

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Gene
"The older I get, the more I admire competence, just simple competence in any field from adultery to zoology."

[Updated on: Wed, 22 October 2003 14:27]

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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13610 is a reply to message #13607] Sun, 19 October 2003 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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With any design you are going to get white space... The old design had plenty of it...

The header that you so mercilesly disect is only 64 pixels high (4 text lines) in most messages you'll save those 4 lines by not having 200+ pixel side bar.

I am not going to post screenshots but rather URLs so bare with me...
http://www.mamboserver.com/fudforum/index.php?t=msg&th=3862&rid=0#m sg_14710

Notice all the white space on the left hand side that strenches for @ least 600 pixels. Or perphaps this:
http://www.mamboserver.com/fudforum/index.php?t=msg&th=2587&rid=0#m sg_9424

Nearly every message wastes 200 pixels due to the sidebar that you appear to like.

Infact I had to resize my browser window by about 50 pixels in order to be able to read the forum without having the resort to vertical scrolling.

Bottom line is that no matter was design you have you are going to have white space... There is nothing wrong with it, if anything it makes the output less cluttered. In most of the messages you WILL be able to see more messages per screen that you could before and that what matters.

There are many people to integrate FUDforum into their designs and cannot use full screen width due to use menu/banner bars on both side that take up to 300-350 pixels of the screen. Another 200 pixels of 'user info' would make their sites unreadable on anything other then 1024*768+ under the old design.


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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13612 is a reply to message #13597] Sun, 19 October 2003 19:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
esm2002 is currently offline  esm2002   United States
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and the one big thing that you have done is introduce "noise" into the message time-line by inserting the poster's info before each individual message. That is what the "noise in message" caption is all about.

You didn't understand the "noise" you introduced into the front page by moving the moderator's info to a line underneath the forum names.

And you didn't understand the "noise" that you introduced in the topic page by moving the poster's info underneath the message ( see the before and after images below ) .

And you don't see that the poster's info interupts the flow of messages. It what the commuincation folks call "noise" because it detracts from the messages.

You don't understand the concept of "noise in the message" nor will you ever understand its impact. And you will never concede that it exists. All you see is "Look how neat things are now - I've eliminated all of that wasted space on the left." I don't pretend to understand much about it myself. But I know good and bad design when I see it. That is why I don't like this non-standard presentation. And unfortunately, the design "issues" have taken there toll on popularity FUDForum.


The way it used to be:

http://fud.prohost.org/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=829


The way it is now:

http://fud.prohost.org/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=828
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Gene
"The older I get, the more I admire competence, just simple competence in any field from adultery to zoology."

[Updated on: Sun, 19 October 2003 19:23]

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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13613 is a reply to message #13612] Sun, 19 October 2003 21:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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Inflexible standards are often worse then no standards at all. The so called standard was original UBB, which simply got copied as far as basic layout ever since by almost every forum's package. It was not copied because it was good, etc... merely simply because it was there and it is always easier to duplicate that to come up with something original.

The layout had and still has many inherit flaws, which other developers are simply afraid to break because of 'backwards compatibility' reasons. Even if a better idea came across they wouldn't change simply because it might weird out some users. Afterall, any change initialy always encounters stiff resistance.

I do not know where your level of expertise lies, but I spend a lot of my time working on forum software, specifically dealing with commercial entities using FUDforum. A lot of the time the design alteration that request as ESSENTIAL component to addoption are the ones dealing with the layout changes I've integrated in this release. Same goes for a fair number of webmasters who have contacted me with questions regarding getting FUDforum to work within their sites. Initially I was of a similar midset as you are right now, however eventually I decided to see whether the changes all these people were making do look better. And after getting used to the 'different', which surprisingly took little time I realized how much more effective the design was, hence this change.

As for screen resolutions being large I find your arguments invalid. I specifically went and looked for recent stats on web resolutions from major web counters and here is what I found:

http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2003/May/res.php
42% 1024 * 768
44% 800 * 600

http://www.servustats.com/screen_resolutionex.php
44% 1024 * 768
39% 800 * 600

There are similar stats on w3schools.org and few other places.

The bottom line being that the prevailant screen resolutions are still quite small and when you add on various browser addons, non-full screen browsers, etc... you get a very limited screen space.


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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13614 is a reply to message #13613] Sun, 19 October 2003 23:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
esm2002 is currently offline  esm2002   United States
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I will read what you wrote more closely tomorrow.

Actually, your new design is not original ( not that you necessarily implied that it was ). I have seen it before. You have introduced "noise and clutter" (which you just can't bring yourself to admit). If you are going to do that, then you have to "turn up the volume" on your message.

Right now your message is lost in all the clutter. Which is strange since you have probably also increased the white space. I guess it comes from clumping stuff on the left hand side. Hmmm...I guess it really isn't strange after all.

As I said, I have seen this design before in forums and they "turned up the volume" on their message thereby pushing the "noise and clutter" back out of the picture. That's what you haven't done. Do that and then, and only then, will your "new" design be a success.


Gene
"The older I get, the more I admire competence, just simple competence in any field from adultery to zoology."

[Updated on: Mon, 20 October 2003 01:12]

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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13615 is a reply to message #13614] Sun, 19 October 2003 23:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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I guess we agree to disagree on the noise & clutter. I find it easier to read you do not, oh well... can't make everyone happy.

As for "turning up the volume" on the message I am not sure what you mean, perphaps you'd like to demonstrate?


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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13616 is a reply to message #13613] Mon, 20 October 2003 00:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
esm2002 is currently offline  esm2002   United States
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Ilia wrote on Sun, 19 October 2003 21:51


As for screen resolutions being large I find your arguments invalid. I specifically went and looked for recent stats on web resolutions from major web counters and here is what I found:

http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2003/May/res.php
42% 1024 * 768
44% 800 * 600

http://www.servustats.com/screen_resolutionex.php
44% 1024 * 768
39% 800 * 600

There are similar stats on w3schools.org and few other places.

The bottom line being that the prevailant screen resolutions are still quite small and when you add on various browser addons, non-full screen browsers, etc... you get a very limited screen space.




god you just gotta love people who try to use only certain numbers to try to justify their position.

looking at the stats from thecounter.com ( and the ones from servustats.com might even be more favorable ) you also see that the 800*600 resolution will be even less of a factor in the future.

To wit, the 800*600 started out in Jan 2002 with 52% of the resolution size and declined to 44% in May of 2003 - a 15% decline. On the other hand the 1024x768 size increased from 34% to 42% during the same time period a 23.5% increase.

By Sep of 2004 ( less than a year from now and the same amount of time from Jan 02 to May 03 ), the numbers go to 36% for 800x600 and 50% for 1024x768.

Add in the % of screens over 1024 and you see that small screens are also small in number and getting smaller.

If you are going down that road, to justify your design, you are leading FUDForum down the wrong path.

Alas, I forget that, according to you, people cover there screens up with all kinds of things and aren't bright enough to click the maximize button to see things better. Well, my 7 year neice knew how to do it and my 74 year old mother-in-law (who never used a PC until 2 years ago) can do it.

Guess which one is the small screen!

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btw, see if you can find the flaw in my numbers...
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Gene
"The older I get, the more I admire competence, just simple competence in any field from adultery to zoology."

[Updated on: Wed, 22 October 2003 14:28]

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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13617 is a reply to message #13615] Mon, 20 October 2003 01:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
esm2002 is currently offline  esm2002   United States
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Ilia wrote on Sun, 19 October 2003 23:24

I guess we agree to disagree on the noise & clutter.


You are correct. You don't see the "noise and clutter" of the bottom part of the image below versus the clean part above. You have demonstrated that over the last year and a half.

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Gene
"The older I get, the more I admire competence, just simple competence in any field from adultery to zoology."

[Updated on: Wed, 22 October 2003 14:28]

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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13618 is a reply to message #13615] Mon, 20 October 2003 01:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
esm2002 is currently offline  esm2002   United States
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btw, time to get James to chime in for you...

Gene
"The older I get, the more I admire competence, just simple competence in any field from adultery to zoology."
Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13619 is a reply to message #13616] Mon, 20 October 2003 01:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I assume you have any reason to argue in such an abusing way, but I really don't apretiate it, neither it's appropriate here.

Talking about browser window size, I almost NEVER using max size, because my main intention is not just read the forum. Usualy I'm doing a lot of other more or less important tasks and definetily I have more than just one browser window open.

And guess what, I do know where this "Max" button is, so what, I'm not bright enough in comparation to your niece or mother-in-law?

c'ommon dude!



Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13622 is a reply to message #13615] Mon, 20 October 2003 09:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
esm2002 is currently offline  esm2002   United States
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Ilia wrote on Sun, 19 October 2003 23:24

As for "turning up the volume" on the message I am not sure what you mean, perphaps you'd like to demonstrate?


just an idea from another forum to start with

http://fud.prohost.org/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=832
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Gene
"The older I get, the more I admire competence, just simple competence in any field from adultery to zoology."
Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13624 is a reply to message #13616] Mon, 20 October 2003 11:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Undoubtely 800*600 resolutions are decreasing but, even 5 years down the road they'd represent @ least 20% of browser screens and the other 60% or so will be 1024*768. Meaning that vast majority of users will still be using smaller screens. You also seem convinced that it is OK to force users to have to maximize their browser to see a page. I think that is wrong. Unless the information is absolutely critical, most people will leave if they cannot read it easily and when you got to scroll 2 or more screens to read a message there is a problem.

Quite frankly I've had just about enough of this discussion, mostly because there is absolutely nothing constructive about it.


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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13643 is a reply to message #13624] Tue, 21 October 2003 10:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AutoHost is currently offline  AutoHost   United States
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Illia,

After struggling through reading this thread, I'd like to post my opinions:

My Opinion:
You both have some good points.
Personally, I prefered the sidebar, which, to me, kept the poster's info visually separate from the actual message itself. I can see that it would be harder to view on a PDA due to the screen space taken up by the sidebar.

If the 2.6.0 move of poster's info to the top of the post is made mandatory, then please consider shifting rank, avatar, special title, and buddy/ignore links to the right of the row.

Ideally, I'd prefer there be a user profile option to let users choose which one they want to see: sidebar poster info or all in top row.

Thanks for your time,


Ron Miller
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[Updated on: Tue, 21 October 2003 10:47]

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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13646 is a reply to message #13643] Tue, 21 October 2003 11:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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Two stock views for messages are out of the question. That said you can always use the template editor to modify the message display template to make it use the old format.

Shifting avatar to the right is a definate no go, I've tried it and it looked ackward as well.
However, shifting the last row to the outmost right is something that I'll need to try.


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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13647 is a reply to message #13646] Tue, 21 October 2003 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Ilia wrote on Tue, 21 October 2003 11:31

Two stock views for messages are out of the question.

That's too bad. Is it because its too hard in the code to have that user preference?

Hmmm...
Are 'flat view' and 'tree view' considered stock views? (and I honestly don't intend to upset or instigate you with that question, its just the first thing I thought of when I read your response.)

Quote:

That said you can always use the template editor to modify the message display template to make it use the old format.


Perhaps leave the old code in the message display template, but commented-out, so admins could change it (so one theme could have it one way and another theme could have it the other way.) ? If the old code was commented out, them I (and any others weird like me Rolling Eyes ) wouldn't have to dig the old code out of a previous version of FUDforum. Sigh, I know... I'm lazy. Cool


Separete issue:
I have 2.3.5 installed, and it seems quite stable. I've been browsing this support forum for a long time, and I keep seeing cool new features and bug fixes, etc... Since I have made several major changes to my code (rank point system, new db table, and major theme changes), I really don't want to have to upgrade too often.

As things look right now, I'd upgrade to 2.5.3rc3 as it maintains the look/feel of what I'm used to. So far, the only thing I've seen mentioned about what's new in 2.6.0 series is that language translations will be handled differently, poster info was moved from left side of post to top of post, and there are some new graphics. Going from 2.5.3 to 2.6.0, to me, implies a major code change and I'm curious what's planned.

Thanks for your time.


Ron Miller
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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13648 is a reply to message #13647] Tue, 21 October 2003 12:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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Unlike threaded views which are individual pages, message displaying is essentially a function used by over a dosen different page. Altering the message display mechanism would require some changes to these pages as well. To make this possible would require nothing less then another theme being distributed by default.

When I have some spare time, I may investigate the possiblity of making this possible if it can be done without introduction of a new theme. But, I make no promises or assurances that this would happen.

2.6.0 is a MAJOR code change. The forum has more functionality, is about 30-40% faster, some minor bug fixes were made along the way. The code base is smaller, template compiler has more functionality, etc....

That said in 2.3.5 works fine for you use that, there is absolutely nothing to say you must use the latest version. However, as far as technical support (non-commercial) goes, only latest versions are supported. Despite 2.5.3 being an RC, that RC is quite stable and if you wish to use pre 2.6.0 code base 2.5.3RC3 is definately a good version to upgrade to (if you need to).


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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13649 is a reply to message #13648] Tue, 21 October 2003 13:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Ilia wrote on Tue, 21 October 2003 12:45

Unlike threaded views which are individual pages, message displaying is essentially a function used by over a dosen different page. Altering the message display mechanism would require some changes to these pages as well. To make this possible would require nothing less then another theme being distributed by default.


So, its more than just the message display template you mentioned in your other reply above?

Quote:


When I have some spare time, I may investigate the possiblity of making this possible if it can be done without introduction of a new theme. But, I make no promises or assurances that this would happen.


I understand that, and thank you for considering the idea.



Ron Miller
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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13651 is a reply to message #13649] Tue, 21 October 2003 15:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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AutoHost wrote on Tue, 21 October 2003 13:41


So, its more than just the message display template you mentioned in your other reply above?



Maybe, maybe not... The change may be as simple as change colspan=2 to colspan=3 or colspan=1 or it may work fine as is. Most of the changes would be in drawmsg.tmpl & possibly drawmsg.inc.t. Bottom line is I am not sure, initially I removed colspan=2, but then I restored it in some cases, so I am not sure.


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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13653 is a reply to message #13576] Tue, 21 October 2003 17:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I can no longer upgrade my forum if this new layout is going to be the default. This is atrocious.
Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13654 is a reply to message #13653] Tue, 21 October 2003 17:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Then don't.

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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13655 is a reply to message #13576] Tue, 21 October 2003 17:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wild_Cat is currently offline  Wild_Cat   Ukraine
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I also were unpleasantly surprised by the new layout.
Constructive thing at the bottom, I even made some design drwaing showing my vision!

First, why I don't like it:

1) While changing the sidepanel to top of the message has almost no effect on threaded view, the user info interwined all the time with the messages text does interfere a lot with reading the topic in flat view! This could perhaps be bettered a little by making it a distinctly different color, but with RowStyleA, RowStyleB & RowStyleC classes alone, such change could spoil other views where those styles are used... Perhaps you should add a separate style for user info, so that it could stand out from the message text? Or at least make it the RowStyleC class, the one least used (I found its use only for selected message in message listing in thread view?).
Also, the message subject separated from the message text by user info does not look good either and gets lost...
And... The user rank separated from user-named and included only after other secondary info (like place of living and date of registration) also looks odd a bit.

2) Topics and forums lists became less readable also! Tables were invented especially for a handy presentation of information and while I would agree with putting the moderators below forum descriptions rather than in a separate column, I don't think putting date and author of last (first?) post below topic subject instead of columns is any good idea at all... At least for the moderators to glance at the list and see the dates and names, for instance!

3) 64 px is YOUR height of userinfo horizontal pane. I use 100x100 avatars e.g. and there are forums which allow even larger ones, or 80x80, so for all those this pane would become 80px or 100px or even heigher! It is also true that the avatar is the least easy block to put in layout from the point of view of decreasing white space and increasing readablity...

4) The white-space issue: there is more white space on short messages in old template than on big messages, where it only takes the narrow side panel. But this could be amended in other ways, it seems to me.

I think that the common template IS good in certain ways and kept thus because it is convenient, otherwise this would be changed by many developers long ago. Also, it is a strange idea to change the layout just to make a difference at the expense of readability of the forum!

Now, to be constructive:
With *short messages* on the old template we lose indeed a lot for white space:
http://fud.prohost.org/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=839
With the old template and big message text we only lose narrow white space below the user info:
http://fud.prohost.org/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=840
IMHO, it is much easier to shorten the sidebar by optimizing following things (eliminate userinfo link dupe, location often not filled in, pass the add to friends and ignore to the actions panel):
http://fud.prohost.org/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=841
and in the end of all ends, it could become left-aligned table, if you absolutely ned to use all the width for the message?

Some design suggestions:
I were thinking about making certain changes to the old template, upgrade to 2.5.3RC3 and stay there (since I have to embed modules and upgrades will become difficult), and I figured out how the above drawn changes would look like:
http://fud.prohost.org/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=842
YET! I made a modif basing on your new template but with regard to my dislikes to it too and it definitely begins to look appealing to me too, may be that would be the best golden middle?...
http://fud.prohost.org/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=843


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What is all that cry about? [message #13656 is a reply to message #13653] Tue, 21 October 2003 17:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I myself also not very fond (by now, maybe I'll get used to it) of that poster's info at the top, But what in a world prevent you from "honing" the presentation yourself?

You could just ask Ilia to provide precise information about where to go to make YOUR changes.


Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13657 is a reply to message #13654] Tue, 21 October 2003 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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JamesS () , 22 2003 00:21

I can no longer upgrade my forum if this new layout is going to be the default. This is atrocious.


Ilia () , 22 2003 00:37

Then don't.


Now, such response IS atrocious =)) I felt at first almost the same as JamesS. Sure you may be don't get paid from us, but instead we're a good feed-back community, aren't we? Wink And in the end of ends, it is for users that it must be convenient?... Look at all the points in our protests... May be something should be changed, not only from old layout, but from your newest invention too? We are all your biggest fan preferring this forum over all others after all and all we can tell you is for the best intentions for this forum and for you as its creator too!


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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13658 is a reply to message #13655] Tue, 21 October 2003 18:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I do not like your layout at all, if anything you suggest wasting even more space by creating huge blank spaces... what for? They do not accomplish anything.

On older layout there is MORE whitespace on shorter messages A LOT more and in addition to everything long messages take far more room then they should. The idea is to reduce amount of browser 'screens' the user needs to go through to read a topic not the opposite.

I already explained how the old layout used by most forum came to be and why it did not change over the years. If you want read older messages in the topic.

Moving things around DOES NOT WORK because you are not solving the primary problem, which is the big annoying white space on the left hand side.

If you use bigger avatars that's fine... your pane will be slightly bigger. That said there are plenty of forums that run without avatars and even on the forums with them they can be disabled via user profile.


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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13659 is a reply to message #13658] Tue, 21 October 2003 18:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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But I'd say that at list idea to move add to buddy list and ignore all posts by this user to the message footer close to "profile" and "pm" buttons not that bad to not to be considered.



Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13660 is a reply to message #13657] Tue, 21 October 2003 18:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Wild_Cat wrote on Tue, 21 October 2003 18:00


Now, such response IS atrocious =)) I felt at first almost the same as JamesS. Sure you may be don't get paid from us, but instead we're a good feed-back community, aren't we? Wink And in the end of ends, it is for users that it must be convenient?... Look at all the points in our protests... May be something should be changed, not only from old layout, but from your newest invention too? We are all your biggest fan preferring this forum over all others after all and all we can tell you is for the best intentions for this forum and for you as its creator too!


Let me put it as delicately as possible. FUDforum is designed by me for me, I have a use for forums I use on several sites this is the original reason FUDforum was designed. There are also several commercial entities who invest & sponsor the continual development, which makes it possible for me to continue developing the forum. Their opinions and suggestions are also weighted in with my own and ultimately based on this features are added & removed. Whenever possible, I also try to listen to users of FUDforum both webmasters and the actual users reading/posting on them. If I believe that their suggestion is valid I implement it, if you look at the various features & functionality FUDforum has you'll realize it as well. However, if you cannot convince me or disagree with me... TOUGH. Fortunately for you, FUDforum is open source & comes with a powerful template editor that can allow you to make any modifications you desire.


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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13661 is a reply to message #13659] Tue, 21 October 2003 18:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Gady wrote on Tue, 21 October 2003 18:10

But I'd say that at list idea to move add to buddy list and ignore all posts by this user to the message footer close to "profile" and "pm" buttons not that bad to not to be considered.




The problem with this (why those 2 links did not come in button form) is that it would be impossible to create standard buttons that would convey the meaning. If you look @ how the ignored message appears you'll see that the button would be out of place there.


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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13664 is a reply to message #13661] Tue, 21 October 2003 19:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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OK, Ilia, I've got it that it's you for you doing it - and we all admire your work so much! So... don't take us too bad. The more that this change may be will finally inspire us for more creativity with actually working on those templates rather than using your ready ones. And still, may be those comments could be of use? Unless you don't want suggestions, then close the them - and off we are Wink

OK. "Ignore" link could be put at left beside the "report to moderator" - in adjacent table cell. What is preventing from putting "friends" to the lower bar? even as text images could be changed basing on current status like in other places.

And... It seemed to me that the last image had the least white space possible in "subject" and "date" lines (and subject sometimes get long so it doesn't harm to have a bit of where to expand, isn't it?) even versus the current template where you have much more white space. The user info "box" could be put to the right. No?

Well, OK, OK, I will do my changes for myself. Just some propositions from which I hoped you could use some ideas... Since falt view is indeed strange... well, may be not to you. May be I were wrong to put time in drawing all this. All you have to do is tell "shut up, I don't need it any better"...


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Re: New in 2.6.0RC1 [message #13665 is a reply to message #13664] Tue, 21 October 2003 20:09 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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I'll put it simply, suggestions are welcome, Top 10 reasons why you don't like the design are not. If you want things to change, show me a better design (preferably html page) or at least a final image of what you'd like to suggest (something I could convert to HTML with minimum effort).

My goal is simple:

I want a design that will be economical in it's space usage allowing for the greatest amount of messages per page. The design MUST work in 800x600 if you make it work with even less, even better.

End of story.


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