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Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15408] Mon, 15 December 2003 09:48 Go to next message
beamdriver is currently offline  beamdriver   United States
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Hi all,

I've been thinking about making a theme that's all CSS, i.e. no nested tables, using the CSS for positioning.

Has anyone tried this with FUD? I may try doing a mock-up page to give an example of what I'm thinking of, but the following sites are all CSS, so you can get an idea of what I'm talking about.

http://www.wired.com
http://www.alistapart.com
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15413 is a reply to message #15408] Mon, 15 December 2003 10:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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This was not tried to my knowledge but you can try searching on Google. This however would not be a simple modification to make.

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icon4.gif  Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15479 is a reply to message #15413] Tue, 16 December 2003 18:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gbjbaanb is currently offline  gbjbaanb   United Kingdom
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no, it would probably not be an easy or simple modification to make - but certainly worthwhile!

Check out http://www.csszengarden.com/ and click the design links at the side. 1 piece of HTML, many many CSS styles.

The sample CSS files also contain plenty of comments and are designed to be used as a tutorial for web/graphic designers.
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15481 is a reply to message #15479] Tue, 16 December 2003 18:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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Given the state of CSS support by common browsers this is nearly impossible to implement. There are just too many incompatibilities, unimplemented functionality and differing implementation of the same CSS.

Maybe in a few years time this will be something to consider, but until then...

Equally important is "why?" afaik the CSS table are not rendered any faster then regular tables and I don't see the advantage of entirely CSS based design. Unfortunately the URL you've provided while certainly shows some very interesting examples does not go into the "why" either.


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Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15496 is a reply to message #15481] Wed, 17 December 2003 09:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
beamdriver is currently offline  beamdriver   United States
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Ilia wrote on Tue, 16 December 2003 18:14

Given the state of CSS support by common browsers this is nearly impossible to implement. There are just too many incompatibilities, unimplemented functionality and differing implementation of the same CSS.



I think that for reasonably up to date versions of current browsers, an all CSS layout is very doable. There are more and more sites that are going to all CSS and ditching the nested table paridigm.

Ilia wrote on Tue, 16 December 2003 18:14


Equally important is "why?" afaik the CSS table are not rendered any faster then regular tables and I don't see the advantage of entirely CSS based design. Unfortunately the URL you've provided while certainly shows some very interesting examples does not go into the "why" either.


Here's a great article on the retooling of slashdot.org to an all CSS layout and the features and benefits of implementing the conversion.

http://www.alistapart.com/articles/slashdot/

Some benefits include: true semantic markup (which aids in search engine optimization), seperating design from content, the ability to have a "printer friendly page" by simply using a diffent style sheet and a reduction in bandwidth load.


Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15518 is a reply to message #15496] Wed, 17 December 2003 13:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gbjbaanb is currently offline  gbjbaanb   United Kingdom
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I waited until tonight to reply - and someone did it for me Smile

That CSSZenGarden site shows that enough CSS is cross-browser/platform to make it work in the mainstream. Incidentally, there's plenty of non-CSS HTML code (especially tables) that work differently in different browsers to make (most) CSS tags no worse than the current.

The reason to CSS-ify, is IMHO to split content from presentation. A CSS forum would probably make maintenance of the back-end code easier too (as you only then have to generate a pretty dull looking layout, the CSS makes it into the forum users see).
Also the forum wouldn't need options to generate/not generate some content - the CSS can simply not display it. Perhaps this is not the optimal way to hide features, but it is another example of why CSS could be useful to Ilia.

I don't think any other forum has this feature, so a 'pure' CSS front end would make FUDforum stand out a lot more. (especially as no amount of fancy back-end features make up for 1 cool looking feature in the minds of end-users Rolling Eyes )

Bandwidth reduction is another major benefit - even if page generation is not affected, and page display times are the same. Users may still see benefits, but owners will definitely see benefits, especially for large forums. As the slashdot article says - they reduced bandwidth by 9k per request. (for the heavily trafficed slashdot - that means 14Gig bandwidth saved per year).

Printer-friendly pages are one 'skin' that would be useful.
A handheld version too.
Plus a visual-disability version would be extremely beneficial to some users.

Lastly, and possibly best. A per-customer skin. I'd like to use FUDforum for my customer's web sites. However, they all have different styles and colours etc.

So. I think it's probably a good thing, and is worth investigating further.
Here's another link: http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic2/
thanks.
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15524 is a reply to message #15408] Wed, 17 December 2003 14:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AzaToth is currently offline  AzaToth   Sweden
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I looked into it, it would be nice, but the main problem is that the templates must been totally rewritten, it's alot, don't know in what end to start Smile

If to rewrit I probably use Xhtml 1.0 strict Smile
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15526 is a reply to message #15408] Wed, 17 December 2003 15:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
beamdriver is currently offline  beamdriver   United States
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It would be cool...and useful...but a hella ton of work. If I were going to do it, I'd probably take a static html "snapshot" of the forum page and then "CSS-ify" that, then, using that as a template, plug that back into the template files.

If nobody takes up the challenge, I may try it. I have a few paying jobs in the queue first, though. Rolling Eyes
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15530 is a reply to message #15526] Wed, 17 December 2003 16:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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I see several problems with the CSS approach.

1) After reading the browser compatibility list and comparing it with log stats of several sites to which I have access to I must say that 10-15% of users will have problems with an all CSS design.

2) Switching to an all CSS design will without a doubt break compatiblity (completely) with every customized design. Forcing users to go through an extensive rework of their customizations.

3) Tableless CSS requires the use of fairly complex CSS, with which many people are not familiar with (I being one of those people)/ CSS is nice and simple for basic things but for more complicated things, tables are easier to visualize and use.

4) It'll take A LOT of time to do.


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Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15535 is a reply to message #15530] Wed, 17 December 2003 17:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gbjbaanb is currently offline  gbjbaanb   United Kingdom
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Ok.

1. I'm sure 10-15% of users would be affected, if you used all the CSS possible. There is a large (AFAIK) range of CSS that is not an issue.
Of course, I don't see your logs. Perhaps you see lots of people with IE5.

2. True, whilst upgrading a forum is reasonably simple (with modified templates), it is still a manual step, one that becomes more difficult the more configuration changes that have been made.
The more modifications you've made mean that making the same changes in CSS is more difficult - but one that should allow you to upgrade in future much more painlessly.
In this regard, a one-off pain of upgrading to CSS is worthwhile.. assuming these people upgrade at all considering the difficulty of migrating all their customisations.
Of course, if you've made only few changes, migrating to CSS is not a very big issue at all.

3. You're a clever chap, Ilia, and having to learn new, (better?) ways should not stop any of us from investing the time required. Otherwise, I'd still be using Pascal on 8-bit unix systems Smile
Once its done for a sample stylesheet, it'll be easy for the majority of changes to be made. People who are likely to want significantly different styles will either have to learn the technology (like they did with PHP?), or already know it. That csszengarden site is modified by graphic designers - not developers! If they can do it....

4. True. This, perhaps is the best argument against migration. However, it may be possible to make a start with parts of FUDforum, putting more styles into the current stylesheet as you go. Step by step, we get where we're going, after all.

If you document your progress, and what you learn on the forum, we can all help migrate some FUD templates with what you teach us... most of it will be boring, repetitive work after all.
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15536 is a reply to message #15535] Wed, 17 December 2003 17:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gbjbaanb is currently offline  gbjbaanb   United Kingdom
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BTW. someone mentioned XHTML. 'Rewriting' FUD to be XHTML compliant is quite easy (though dull).

Check out http://www.w3schools.com/xhtml/xhtml_howto.asp and the what-is XHTML tutorial http://www.w3schools.com/xhtml/xhtml_intro.asp
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15537 is a reply to message #15535] Wed, 17 December 2003 18:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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Quote:


1. I'm sure 10-15% of users would be affected, if you used all the CSS possible. There is a large (AFAIK) range of CSS that is not an issue.
Of course, I don't see your logs. Perhaps you see lots of people with IE5.



The logs I am looking at tell me that there are still plenty of people using IE 5.0 and Opera < 7.0 as well as early mozillas (0.9 - 1.3). The total sum of these people averages between 10-15%. While certainly nor a majority that's still a large minority that will be affected.

Quote:


Once its done for a sample stylesheet, it'll be easy for the majority of changes to be made.



I am not so certain in my (albeit limited) experience I've seen CSS behave somewhat unusually when a large hiearchy is involved. And that is exactly what will happen when we try to replace table within tables within tables with CSS.

Quote:


That csszengarden site is modified by graphic designers - not developers! If they can do it....



Everyone has their stregths, just because they can do it does not mean it's easy. I am quite certains that web developers who show case their work on that site are quite skilled with CSS and as far as CSS maybe far beyond made developers who's skill set is in the arena of PHP, Perl, C, etc...

Quote:


4. True. This, perhaps is the best argument against migration. However, it may be possible to make a start with parts of FUDforum, putting more styles into the current stylesheet as you go. Step by step, we get where we're going, after all.



I'd really like to see one of the forum's pages done completely in CSS (let's say the front page) before making any decisions.


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Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15538 is a reply to message #15536] Wed, 17 December 2003 18:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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gbjbaanb wrote on Wed, 17 December 2003 17:57

BTW. someone mentioned XHTML. 'Rewriting' FUD to be XHTML compliant is quite easy (though dull).

Check out http://www.w3schools.com/xhtml/xhtml_howto.asp and the what-is XHTML tutorial http://www.w3schools.com/xhtml/xhtml_intro.asp



Why? What is there to gain?

XHTML bloats the HTML (more text), it also disallows certain elements that help browsers render pages and I see no benefits to such a conversion beyond wasting time.


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Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15539 is a reply to message #15538] Wed, 17 December 2003 18:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AzaToth is currently offline  AzaToth   Sweden
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Ilia wrote on Thu, 18 December 2003 00:25

gbjbaanb wrote on Wed, 17 December 2003 17:57

BTW. someone mentioned XHTML. 'Rewriting' FUD to be XHTML compliant is quite easy (though dull).

Check out http://www.w3schools.com/xhtml/xhtml_howto.asp and the what-is XHTML tutorial http://www.w3schools.com/xhtml/xhtml_intro.asp



Why? What is there to gain?

XHTML bloats the HTML (more text), it also disallows certain elements that help browsers render pages and I see no benefits to such a conversion beyond wasting time.


There are some of use who want everything to be strict, defining everything as objects etc. It's a difficult task to start with, but at the end you have a platform who people with different skills to modify.

I like xhtml because it force me to "code" correctly, I like css because you shall always differ between content and formating.

Table is not ment to be used as a formating tool, it's only ment to use as a table (no shit Smile). the font tag shall as blink and marquee R.I.P.

I'll look into transforming default-template into pure xhtml/css, but it might take some while.
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15540 is a reply to message #15539] Wed, 17 December 2003 19:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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There is nothing wrong with HTML 4.01 Transitional works great and you still didn't explain the advantages of XHTML over it. I mean it's just as easy to modify HTML 4.01 as it XHTML, some may even argue XHTML is more difficult because of it's uber strictness.

As for CSS I'd still recommend converting just 1 page (front page for example) of the forum and seeing what are the advantages and downfalls. Don't even try to convert the templates, just take the HTML output and convert that. Once we have a working prototype for a single page better conclusions can be drawn.


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Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15570 is a reply to message #15540] Fri, 19 December 2003 09:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
beamdriver is currently offline  beamdriver   United States
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Ilia wrote on Wed, 17 December 2003 19:04


As for CSS I'd still recommend converting just 1 page (front page for example) of the forum and seeing what are the advantages and downfalls. Don't even try to convert the templates, just take the HTML output and convert that. Once we have a working prototype for a single page better conclusions can be drawn.


That's a sensible approach. If nobody takes up the challenge, I'll give it a try in a week or two, once I clear all this stuff off of my plate.
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15695 is a reply to message #15570] Thu, 01 January 2004 22:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tgaastra is currently offline  tgaastra   United States
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I've found XHTML, once I started using it, a little easier to maintain. Mainly because its a little easier to validate, and a little less easy to "do the same thing in two different ways" which quite often just means that the 2nd way is going to break on a browser at some point in the future.

I'll agree that XHTML 1.0 Strict is pretty difficult to do some things in, but I've had good results writing in 1.0 Transitional and using CSS pages for the design work. I'm definitely NOT a graphic artist. However, combined with doing more and more of my PHP coding in Smarty lately, its made it a lot easier for me to turn finished functionality pages over TO a web designer/graphic artist and let them do what they are supposed to do.
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15698 is a reply to message #15695] Thu, 01 January 2004 23:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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Dunno in my experience new standards have a poor browser penetration and cause more headache then anything else.

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Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15700 is a reply to message #15698] Fri, 02 January 2004 00:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tgaastra is currently offline  tgaastra   United States
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Well, we're also probably targetting a different audience. I GET to specify the clients/browsers people can use to access my application. I know I'm lucky that way.

Still though, I get good results from IE 5.5+, Mozilla (and all its derivatives) 1+, Opera 7+, and KHTML based derivates, which covers just about 100% of my audience.
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15711 is a reply to message #15700] Fri, 02 January 2004 10:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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When you can control the browser(s) then you can use any technology you like, since you know if they client browsers will support it or not. However, the forum needs to work on a as wide of a browser selection as possible.

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icon5.gif  Any news about the all CSS theme ? [message #17973 is a reply to message #15408] Wed, 28 April 2004 02:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Spooky is currently offline  Spooky   France
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Hi,

I'm currently finishing the design of an all CSS website. The next step is to integrate a FUD forum in it. Has anyone progressed on a table less theme ?

Have a nice day.

Sylvain
Re: Any news about the all CSS theme ? [message #17977 is a reply to message #17973] Wed, 28 April 2004 09:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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Not to my knowledge, I've recently made a bunch of CSS revisions and was able to get rid of some smaller tables, however there are still many tables. Attempts to replace those tables with CSS have not been successful Sad

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Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #18276 is a reply to message #15570] Sat, 15 May 2004 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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beamdriver wrote on Fri, 19 December 2003 06:41

Ilia wrote on Wed, 17 December 2003 19:04


As for CSS I'd still recommend converting just 1 page (front page for example) of the forum and seeing what are the advantages and downfalls. Don't even try to convert the templates, just take the HTML output and convert that. Once we have a working prototype for a single page better conclusions can be drawn.


That's a sensible approach. If nobody takes up the challenge, I'll give it a try in a week or two, once I clear all this stuff off of my plate.




Any progress on your efforts yet? Or do you still have food on your plate Wink Just wondering, because you were so enthusiastic about this and I'd like to know where you've gotten on this.
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #19211 is a reply to message #15408] Fri, 02 July 2004 00:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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CSS doesn't deprecate tables. The forum indices and topic indices display tabular data so it'd make sense to use tables. The topic pages that contain the posts probably wouldn't need any tables, just divs.

As for CSS and tables, the current CSS table model is not very easy to utilize.
Any news on the tableless design front [message #20203 is a reply to message #15408] Sat, 02 October 2004 03:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Spooky is currently offline  Spooky   France
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Hi,

Has anyone made any progress concerning an all css (no table) theme ?

Have a nice day.
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20559 is a reply to message #15408] Tue, 19 October 2004 11:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JamesS is currently offline  JamesS   United States
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I have skimmed through this topic and have a couple things to add.

1) XHTML is not really necessary. Take a look at http://ug.dyndns.org/~jsumners/comments.php?article=167 for an explanation why.

2) Nested tables are indeed nasty and "bad" but a table can be used for framing. I agree that using tables for layout is not the best idea but some designs are not conducive to any other method while retaining majority compatibility.

It would be quite easy to redo the front forum page with cleaner markup styled by CSS and I will put that on my list of things to do during winter break. It would most certainly reduce bandwidth on heavily trafficed forums. CSS is only downloaded as needed and once downloaded does not redownload until it has changed (unlike table laden markup).
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20561 is a reply to message #20559] Tue, 19 October 2004 11:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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All layout is already done with CSS so you won't see much space savings, the old forum versions used a fair bit of non-css but that is no longer the case.

The front page for example uses a very basic table that would be very difficult to replace with simpler CSS that all browsers could render properly, but you are welcome to try anyway Wink


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Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20564 is a reply to message #15408] Tue, 19 October 2004 12:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JamesS is currently offline  JamesS   United States
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I didn't realize how old the thread is. I see that it has indeed been cleaned up quite a bit.
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20785 is a reply to message #15408] Thu, 28 October 2004 16:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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CSS/XHTML design is starting to be a 'good thing' now-a-days. There's at least one forum that's converting to a table-less layout: PunBB version 1.2. Once it comes out it might be worth taking a look at it for ideas.

Dean
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20829 is a reply to message #15408] Fri, 29 October 2004 09:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JamesS is currently offline  JamesS   United States
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D9rr: XHTML is indeed useful if you are writing a web page that uses other XML based markup. This forum, however, is straight HTML which requires no use of XML.

Personally, I would like to see the forum written to HTML 4.01 Strict. If it were written that way then changing to XHTML, if such a change were ever needed, would be trivial.

The following three articles explain very well why using CSS to represent a grid layout (read: using tables [minimally]) is a waste of time:

http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/09/03/sliding-faux-columns/
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/09/05/css-grids/
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/09/06/to-be-tabled/

Basically, what you end up with is heavy markup that is structured like table markup but has to be styled to render like a table. And trust me, it is more trouble than it is worth to convert a grid layout page to all CSS. I worked for about two weeks to render http://thehub.clayton.edu/ without tables but ended up sticking with minimal tables because of compatibility (the page must work with IE). Note, though, that that page is tremendously better than the top level site, http://www.clayton.edu/ , which all "two clicks away from the front page" sites must be modeled after. I further cleaned it up on http://student.claytonstate.net/~csu10066/cims/index.html .

My point being, don't just say "I can't use tables they are bad" because a majority of people that are coming around to standards based design is proselytizing that you do so. Look at the situation and determine the best, most efficient, way to do the design while remaining compliant (hopefully strict compliant).
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20830 is a reply to message #20829] Fri, 29 October 2004 09:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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I see no advantage to HTML 4.01 Strict other then making my life more difficult Wink
My goal is to ensure that as many browsers can render the forum's pages as well possible, if that means I must break W3C standards so be it.


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Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20831 is a reply to message #15408] Fri, 29 October 2004 09:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JamesS is currently offline  JamesS   United States
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Actually, strict is probably the most friendly to all browsers. It is the only way to get IE to do a lot of CSS "correctly" and pretty much every other browser out there prefers strict to other doctypes. But... *shrug*
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20832 is a reply to message #20831] Fri, 29 October 2004 10:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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I have tried current HTML 4.01 transitional in all current browsers and they all render it fine...

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Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20833 is a reply to message #15408] Fri, 29 October 2004 10:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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They do. But, the forum doesn't use much CSS for layout either. It is when you are using CSS for layout that strict becomes your best friend. I was just throwing in what I would prefer in the middle of responding to D9rr.
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20834 is a reply to message #20833] Fri, 29 October 2004 10:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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The point that I was trying to make is that I see no reason to change something that works unless someone can clearly demonstrate that something new will be way better.

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Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20837 is a reply to message #20829] Fri, 29 October 2004 13:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D9rr is currently offline  D9rr   United States
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JamesS wrote on Fri, 29 October 2004 09:31

The following three articles explain very well why using CSS to represent a grid layout (read: using tables [minimally]) is a waste of time:

http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/09/03/sliding-faux-columns/
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/09/05/css-grids/
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/09/06/to-be-tabled/

Basically, what you end up with is heavy markup that is structured like table markup but has to be styled to render like a table. And trust me, it is more trouble than it is worth to convert a grid layout page to all CSS.

My point being, don't just say "I can't use tables they are bad" because a majority of people that are coming around to standards based design is proselytizing that you do so. Look at the situation and determine the best, most efficient, way to do the design while remaining compliant (hopefully strict compliant).


I never said, "can't use tables; they are bad". Tables vs no-tables and semantically correct XHTML/CSS vs deprecated HTML are 2 totally different subjects.

Tables are the best solution for grid layouts, without question. However, they're frequently overused. It depends on the specific situation whether tables should be used or not.

The other point - whether to use XHTML/CSS - does not exclude using tables.

I just didn't get into it in depth in my previous post because it didn't seem necessary. My point was that (1)CSS is more supported these days, and (2)there are ways to code with less tables, resulting in quicker page load speeds. In short, I agree with you.


Dean
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20861 is a reply to message #20829] Sun, 31 October 2004 01:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ric Fischer is currently offline  Ric Fischer   United States
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JamesS wrote on Fri, 29 October 2004 06:31

D9rr: XHTML is indeed useful if you are writing a web page that uses other XML based markup. This forum, however, is straight HTML which requires no use of XML.


An interesting concept: stagnation by default?

Perhaps a relevant example would help:

http://www.sixapart.com/pronet/2004/10/word_docs_from.html

And, of course, with the very same software, there's this:

http://www.sixapart.com/pronet/2004/10/using_movable_t_1.html

Web applications who do not learn to separate content from layout will ultimately be left behind.

However, I just read this thread. We went from

Ilia wrote on Tue, 16 December 2003 16:14

Equally important is "why?" afaik the CSS table are not rendered any faster then regular tables and I don't see the advantage of entirely CSS based design.


... to ...

Ilia wrote on Tue, 19 October 2004 08:57

All layout is already done with CSS


Not that we're table-less, yet. (I'll have to tell my low-vision client that I _still_ haven't found a forum for him, yet.) Sighted webmasters, me included until my client educated me, automatically hamper many sight-disadvantaged users when we use tables. I'd just love to see a forum with a style or theme that's truly linear ... much like reading a newsgroup message. Unfortunately, since the GUI of a newsreader usually can't handle giant fonts that well, newsreaders are themselves difficult for my client to use.

I'm sure FUDForum will eventually go this route. Meanwhile, I'll keep shopping for another forum with more open-ended features and with a more open-minded author. (This was not meant as a flame, just a thinking-out-loud comment.)


Ric Fischer
Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20867 is a reply to message #20861] Sun, 31 October 2004 13:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ilia is currently offline  Ilia   Canada
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Ric Fischer wrote on Sun, 31 October 2004 01:07


Web applications who do not learn to separate content from layout will ultimately be left behind.



The forum uses a templating system that only separates content from presentation layer but also separates text to allow for simple translations.

Quote:


However, I just read this thread. We went from

Ilia wrote on Tue, 16 December 2003 16:14

Equally important is "why?" afaik the CSS table are not rendered any faster then regular tables and I don't see the advantage of entirely CSS based design.


... to ...

Ilia wrote on Tue, 19 October 2004 08:57

All layout is already done with CSS




Table less layout is impractical, my position on the matter still stands. Using CSS in the place of various HTML formatting entities was done and made sense because it reduces the output and make customizing forum that much easier. Plus over the years browsers have matured enough that CSS used by the forum can be successfully rendered by all modern variants.


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Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20877 is a reply to message #20861] Sun, 31 October 2004 20:54 Go to previous message
D9rr is currently offline  D9rr   United States
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Ric Fischer wrote on Sun, 31 October 2004 01:07

I'm sure FUDForum will eventually go this route. Meanwhile, I'll keep shopping for another forum with more open-ended features and with a more open-minded author. (This was not meant as a flame, just a thinking-out-loud comment.)


Ric, didn't you see my post regarding PunBB? It's next release (1.2) will use DIVs instead of tables for most of the layout:
D9rr wrote on Thu, 28 October 2004 16:28

There's at least one forum that's converting to a table-less layout: PunBB version 1.2. Once it comes out it might be worth taking a look at it for ideas.


Or, just convert FUDforum to a table-less layout yourself. It wouldn't be that difficult.


Dean

[Updated on: Sun, 31 October 2004 20:57]

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