| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Fri, 22 July 2005 17:30 |
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Interesting ideas, the 1st variant of the page looks rather well. Few things to note, how would nested categories look like, while not used on this forum, FUDforum allows categories to have subcategories ala:
Main Category
---- Sub Category
--------- Sub sub category
Aside from that the only information I feel is missing that is somewhat import are details about the moderators. Since front page is the only place where this is shown, perhaps we need to consider showing it somehow or move it off to another page.
The 3rd concept, topic view is a neat concept, but I wonder if perhaps the forum listing is given too much space there. In most cases people relatively rarely change forums and spend much more time reading messages and browsing topic. Thus from usability perspective it may be worth while to reduce the space taken up by that list.
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| Post by kenjb is ignored |
| Post by !alex is ignored |
| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Wed, 27 July 2005 11:41 |
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Hello world! 
| !alex wrote on Mon, 25 July 2005 12:46 |
i`m currently working on templates for my ecommerce-solution that are nearly pure css, xhtml 1.0 transitional compliant and use no tables (at the moment still 2 or 3  )
- generally i would say it is possible to give the forum a div-based layout but there is need to use a lot of css-hacks to switch some values based on the browser.
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Well, I see no point in removing all tables - they're allowed even in strict XHTML, as long as they are not used for design, but for presenting data. I made phpBB template without tables, pure xhtml and css. Removing tables from "index" and "viewforum" was a mistake - there is no way to make good substite for them (substitute that would look so clear and would work with all browsers or in all resolutions).
Other than that I agree it's possible to make a forum layout based on div's, etc.
| !alex wrote on Mon, 25 July 2005 12:46 |
At the moment i don't have enough spare to work on a forum`s layout but if someone would like to work on such a mission i may bring-in some hours on the css/hacks to make it work on different browsers.
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http://www.dithered.com/css_filters/css_only/index.php
www.alistapart.com 
BTW What is the oldest browser that should be supported by the new theme? IE4.0?
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Wed, 27 July 2005 12:18 |
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While tableless layout is nice, I must agree with Lukin that avoiding tables like fire and coding just to avoid them may not be such a good idea. As long as there is maybe 1-2 tables per page, IMHO that's not a problem.
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Wed, 27 July 2005 12:44 |
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I have an idea or two that doesn't involve using tables for layout. My Calculus II final is one week from today and I hope to be able to work on it after that; right now I have to catch up in class 
Any way, if done correctly, a layout done without tables is going to make the forum quicker (and I know how much you like speed). The typical use of tables for layout creates a lot of overhead that has to be re-downloaded every page view. I don't agree with everyone's desire to use the transitional doctype nor their need to use XHTML. The first is just lazy and the second has no viable, cross-browser, implementation IMHO.
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Wed, 27 July 2005 12:52 |
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My problem with strict HTML formats is that they make it very difficult to add all sorts of brower specific hacks often necessary to get things to render "OK".
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Wed, 27 July 2005 12:57 |
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IE is really the only browser that becomes a problem. But, I have worked with it enough to know what needs to be done. I am not saying I will complete such a theme though I intend to give it a good shot. We shall see.
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Wed, 27 July 2005 13:03 |
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Well, IE maybe the one requiring most "hack", but Opera and Konqueror are definately a close 2nd and 3rd.
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Wed, 27 July 2005 13:08 |
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Agreed, KHTML sucks. I haven't had too many issues with Opera though. I have found that it is much easier to get browsers to do what you want them to when they are in compliance mode. When they are quirks mode who knows what is going to happen.
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Wed, 27 July 2005 13:12 |
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Well, KHTML engine (somewhat tuned) is what powers Apple's Safari browser, so it's popularity is growing, making compatibility with it a concern. Opera mostly tries to emulate IE behaviour, which in many cases means that the same hacks used for IE also solve issues on Opera.
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Wed, 27 July 2005 14:09 |
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| JamesS wrote on Wed, 27 July 2005 12:44 |
I have an idea or two that doesn't involve using tables for layout. My Calculus II final is one week from today and I hope to be able to work on it after that; right now I have to catch up in class
Any way, if done correctly, a layout done without tables is going to make the forum quicker (and I know how much you like speed). The typical use of tables for layout creates a lot of overhead that has to be re-downloaded every page view. I don't agree with everyone's desire to use the transitional doctype nor their need to use XHTML. The first is just lazy and the second has no viable, cross-browser, implementation IMHO.
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Tables are bad when you use them for purely visual purposes, like making a menu in table. But they are excellent for presenting sorted data, something like a table of topics with an info about topic starter, date of last post, etc. This part of forum is something like an Excel sheet - making such thing in div's has no sense. Tables are not "banned" in XHTML, they just should not be used for "description of a layout".
| Ilia wrote on Wed, 27 July 2005 13:12 |
Well, KHTML engine (somewhat tuned) is what powers Apple's Safari browser, so it's popularity is growing, making compatibility with it a concern. Opera mostly tries to emulate IE behaviour, which in many cases means that the same hacks used for IE also solve issues on Opera.
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You're talking about some old version of Opera. The one and only version of this browser which emulated IE was 7.01. It was in use for a shor period of time - producer quickly updated it to 7.23. The newest one is Opera 8 and it has one of the best css support on the market.
The newest version of Safari (not officialy released yet) has it even better than Opera - it was the first browser which passed Acid2 test. To this day only two browsers pass this test: Konqueror and iCab.
Well, imho strict XHTML is a big problem only for older browsers like IE4 and IE5. Making a layout for IE6 is not that complicated and don't need so many hacks - of course if your layout is not that complicated
I reply my question to forum developers: What is the oldest browser that should be supported by the new theme?
And a second question: opening links in new windows (using target="_blank") is not allowed in xhtml 1.0 strict. So the question is: do I have to modify the forum code and remove "target" parameters from an [ URL] code, etc. or better use transitional xhtml in a theme?
P.S. I know that opening a page in new window can be done by javascript, so that could be a good substitute for "target" parm, but then again newer browsers could treat such link as an pop-up window.
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Wed, 27 July 2005 14:32 |
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| Lukin wrote on Wed, 27 July 2005 14:09 |
I reply my question to forum developers: What is the oldest browser that should be supported by the new theme?
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At this time I'd say IE 5.0, according my quick search on browser usage sites it still comprises 5-8% of the overall browser market. I'd consider IE 6.0 specific themes as long as they can me made to look reasonably well in IE 5.0. I suspect & hope that within 6 month or so IE 5.0 usage will drop well below 5% mark.
| Quote: |
And a second question: opening links in new windows (using target="_blank") is not allowed in xhtml 1.0 strict. So the question is: do I have to modify the forum code and remove "target" parameters from an [ URL] code, etc. or better use transitional xhtml in a theme?
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Let's use transitional if that allows us to keep target, it seems to me removing a non-javascript way of handling new window creation was a REALLY bad idea on behalf of the spec writers.
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P.S. I know that opening a page in new window can be done by javascript, so that could be a good substitute for "target" parm, but then again newer browsers could treat such link as an pop-up window.
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There is the issue of people disabling JavaScript all together.
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Wed, 27 July 2005 15:01 |
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First, tables were never intended to be used for design purposes. I know all of that and fully subscribe. I also never said anything about using divs to replace the table structure. My idea involves a different element all together and would allow for greater freedom in layout design. I am keeping it under my hat, so to speak, so that none of you steal it (yet) If I decide that I don't have the time to complete it then I will at least show off a mockup of the front page.
Also, I am using Safari to write this post I think that webkit has a bit better CSS engine that KHTML. It isn't quite as good as Firefox's but it is certainly better than IE's minimal implementation of CSS1.
As for the target problem. Why not use javascript? One of the requirements for FUDforum is that javascript must be enabled. Since FUDforum already relies on javascript so heavily what is wrong with adding one more little function to handle opening new windows? Plus, with javascript turned off the link would work like the user expects it to. I know that I never expect links to open in a new window, unless the site has conditioned me to, and get upset when they do.
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Wed, 27 July 2005 15:13 |
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| JamesS wrote on Wed, 27 July 2005 15:01 |
As for the target problem. Why not use javascript? One of the requirements for FUDforum is that javascript must be enabled. Since FUDforum already relies on javascript so heavily what is wrong with adding one more little function to handle opening new windows? Plus, with javascript turned off the link would work like the user expects it to. I know that I never expect links to open in a new window, unless the site has conditioned me to, and get upset when they do.
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That's not true, if you disable JavaScript you will still be able to use the forum without any problems. The only instances where lack JavaScript will become apperent is automatic styling tools on post page and a 2-3 non-critial popups.
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Thu, 28 July 2005 14:44 |
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Username should be on the left side.
i only have gripe with the main message page. The rest of the fudforum looks pretty professional - the darblue - light bluish gray combination.
But the main message page sucks - ( in the original sense of the word . The user info should be on the left. It has too many advantages.
Take a look at this. It is just a three minute hack, and i am a person who has no color nor design sense. It just shows that ANYTHING will look better than the current main-message layout.
http://lxlabs.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=84&start=0
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Thu, 28 July 2005 16:40 |
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| Ilia wrote on Thu, 28 July 2005 16:12 |
IMHO that's a bad idea, FUDforum used to arrange messages like this in the past.
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Didn't 2.5 have the userinfo on the left. Anyway please have at least one skin in this format. The user-info on the left also doubles as a margin, which is what makes this particular layout look good.
Thanks.
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| Post by Wild_Cat is ignored |
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Sat, 10 September 2005 10:24 |
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Great!! I was browsing the Internet for something of this nature. I wanted to find a message board company to redesign their layout. If I win (which I will, a little sportsmanship trash talk) I don't want an I pod -- just recognition. I just graduated from Virginia college webmaster program and I am looking to get more recognition for my website. Good Luck.
Thanks,
Malachi Knight
Note: Is there a color scheme you have in mind?
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Sat, 10 September 2005 20:09 |
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how about submitting an already made forum layout. And if it's chosen, a skin will be made. I think that would attract more people because skinning takes alot more time then comming up with a layout.
anywho, if you would, i'll submit this layout from my website. www.vjournals.net.. Of course it won't look exactly the same, i have some major tweeks in mind.
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Sun, 11 September 2005 13:17 |
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| Malachi Knight wrote on Sat, 10 September 2005 10:24 |
Note: Is there a color scheme you have in mind?
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I'd prefer to stick with neutral colors such as blue, since afterall the "default' theme should be flexible enough to work in nearly all situations without requiring much tweaking.
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Wed, 12 October 2005 11:35 |
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My idea turned out to be a bad one. I had come up with a way to use definition lists and unordered lists for the main content but it ended up being a recreation of the table structure.
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Mon, 17 October 2005 11:31 |
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Is there anybody else who still make a theme for the contest? I'm finishing with this one:
It will have a classic version (with colors and icons similar to default FUDforum theme) but personally I like this one better. Any thoughts or suggestions?
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Mon, 17 October 2005 11:47 |
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Looks good, I like your choice of colors, although the "native" icons for read/unread status look a bit out of place. Perhaps they need to have their colors adjusted to match the theme better?
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Wed, 09 November 2005 15:13 |
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I really like the theme shown above. I do agree that the native icons need to be changed. Will forum administrators be able to customize the colors?
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Wed, 09 November 2005 15:33 |
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My biggest request would be a simpler stylesheet. There are a lot of unnecessary styles in the current stylesheet. If more robust selectors were used, then the stylesheet would be a lot easier to edit.
One method I have found handy is to split the stylesheet up based on function. Take a look at what I did with http://james.roomfullofmirrors.com/'s stylesheet(s). If you do, keep this in mind, I didn't catch some bad cascading with my original design so I implemented a quick fix by referencing the appropriate sheets on the pages that need them. I just haven't had the time to go back and fix it. It is still a good example of decently planned stylesheets, though. Oh, and it won't be too awesome in Internet Explorer; it is my personal site and I don't make any concessions for IE. If it were something more than a personal site, sure, I would have made IE work just like the rest of the browsers.
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Fri, 11 November 2005 09:24 |
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There is a reason why there are so many styles, I think you'll agree with it in a moment. If there were fewer styles more parts of the forum would be goverened by the same style, making most changes very wide spread, much more so then the designer may may want. This would mean that many of the layout changes would need to be done in individual templates, making the process of customizing the forum's appearance more complicated.
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Fri, 11 November 2005 09:46 |
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Actually, more widespread changes is why I am in favor of a simpler stylesheet. If I were to rework it I would probably split it up thusly:
1) A stylesheet that styles the overall layout. It would mostly just style the tables and divs that are used on every page of the forum. Any style that would be used on every page (such a styling of links) should go in this sheet.
2) A stylesheet for the index page. This would style the text and links on the main index page. The styles in this sheet would more than likely be used by the category and forum views.
3) A stylesheet for the thread view. Stuff like the "code" tag doesn't need to be in the other two sheets. This sheet could also be used for post composition.
It may sound complicated but it really isn't. I think it actually simplifies things. Every element wouldn't have to have a specific class or three. This would reduce the overall size of the markup as well as the size, and complexity, of the stylesheet. Which in turn would increase performance a bit.
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Fri, 11 November 2005 09:49 |
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Separate stylesheets would actually decrease performance since you'd need to load >1 stylesheet per page.
Having individual stylesheets for separate pages is a bad idea IMO.
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Fri, 11 November 2005 09:55 |
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It would only decrease it the first time a user views the page. Once the styles are cached they aren't redownloaded again until they have changed, as I am sure you know. Even then, though, the user usually has to clean out their cache. Plus, you wouldn't have to include all three stylesheets on every page. The only page that would have, at most, three sheets referenced would be the thread view page. And really, how is sending a whole bunch of useless information faster than sending less, more relevant, information?
Also, the stylesheets could still be sent in one request by using the @import rule instead of referencing them with a link.
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| Re: FUDforum Layout Contest!!! |
Sat, 12 November 2005 14:53 |
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I believe you have a very interesting, sophisticated, fast, and efficient theming system. However, I believe you would have more people interested in making themes if it were less complicated. The web-based template editing is very sophisticated and it requires a lot of time to understand and then use. Some people I know, who have looked at it, didn't even want to try to understand it. The thing I do like about it is that I know of no other forums that provides such an interface into the templating system. Maybe a different layout for this would be beneficial. I can think of nothing at the moment, however. As for designing themes, the modular approach is also complex and requires much time to learn the layout of the files. I think it would be very helpful if there were some kind of interface, whether it be win32 based or web based, for designing the theme. The template editor is a good start. I think it can go any direction from there and it will be better. Anyway, these are just some thoughts I had a few days ago during a conversation with someone at work. I hope it helps in some way.
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