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Re: Operator precedence [message #185052 is a reply to message #185017]

Tue, 25 February 2014 03:41

Richard Damon
Messages: 58
Registered: August 2011

Karma:

Member

On 2/24/14, 7:00 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

> What language gives every possible way for you to screw up your
> programming?
>
> If you want to find out how some screwed-up code works in ANY language,
> you try it and find out.
>

Herein lies the path to madness.

Take the following C code

#include <stdio.h>

int main() {
int i = 4;
i = ++i + i++;
printf("%i\n", i);
return 0;
}

Question, you want to find out what this is supposed to do. By your
statement, you run it on a system. The problem is that the answer you
get is only valid for THAT system, and possible for that EXACT piece of
code.

The REAL answer is you compare the code to the formal specification of
the language, and you get the answer.

Too many people use your answer, and then complain because they get a
different answer on another machine, or in different circumstances, and
then complain that the compiler is "broken", when the real answer is
that THEIR program was the one that was broken.

(For those not familiar with C, the answer in this case is that the
program has performed "undefined behavior" by modifying i twice without
a sequence point, and thus *ANY* resultant behavior is acceptable.

Here is a question, does PHP's documentation promise how the equivalent
PHP statement will execute?

....

>> The assignment operators in PHP have, in effect, different precedences
>> on the left and the right (a feature that some languages flaunt) but
>> that is not common and certainly not part of what I'd call basic
>> knowledge. The documentation gives one example of this peculiarity, but
>> that does not clear the matter up conclusively. For example, in some
>> languages permit assignment to the result of a conditional expression,
>> but I think it's hard to tell from the documentation what these two do:
>>
>> $bool ? $a : $b = 42;
>> ($bool ? $a : $b) = 42;
>>
>
> Show me what language provides you with examples of every possible
> combination of operators and expressions.

Read the C Grammer definition. It precisely describes how ANY expression
is to be parsed.

It does give the compiler freedom to choose the order to execute the
parse tree, so things without inherent order have no promise of order,
but this is made explicit.

>
>> The operator precedence table suggests that both mean the same thing,
>> but they don't. I don't think the meaning of either is easily
>> determined from the documentation.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>
> So you try it out, as you do in any language. But just because you can
> come up with some weird combination of operators which isn't listed in
> the doc does not mean the language is not rigorously defined.
> with
> But it does mean you are trolling.
>

Rigorously defined would mean "precisely or exactly defined", which,
yes, does say that if you can come up with a "weird" combination, that
is not documented as to what is to happen, the definition is not
rigorous. A Formal definition, will be complete, as that is part of
being formal.

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[Message index]

		Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Sun, 23 February 2014 17:03
		Re: Operator precedence By: GS on Sun, 23 February 2014 19:42
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Sun, 23 February 2014 20:23
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 23 February 2014 21:34
		Re: Operator precedence By: Richard Damon on Sun, 23 February 2014 23:36
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 24 February 2014 02:09
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Mon, 24 February 2014 04:49
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Mon, 24 February 2014 11:56
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Mon, 24 February 2014 16:38
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Mon, 24 February 2014 21:25
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Mon, 24 February 2014 23:38
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 00:07
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Tue, 25 February 2014 00:37
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 01:12
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Tue, 25 February 2014 02:29
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 18:41
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Tue, 25 February 2014 18:55
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 20:36
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Tue, 25 February 2014 03:08
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Tue, 25 February 2014 03:17
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Tue, 25 February 2014 04:45
		Re: Operator precedence By: GS on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:45
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 24 February 2014 12:00
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Mon, 24 February 2014 17:11
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 24 February 2014 19:27
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 00:25
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 01:40
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Mon, 24 February 2014 21:23
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 24 February 2014 21:45
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Tue, 25 February 2014 04:32
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 04:47
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Tue, 25 February 2014 16:56
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 18:59
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 19:19
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Tue, 25 February 2014 19:43
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:02
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:01
		Object constructors/destructors (was: Operator precedence) By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:19
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:32
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:55
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 22:01
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Adam Harvey on Tue, 25 February 2014 23:22
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 26 February 2014 02:10
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Wed, 26 February 2014 20:10
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 26 February 2014 21:01
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Wed, 26 February 2014 21:59
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 26 February 2014 22:19
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Wed, 26 February 2014 22:39
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Thu, 27 February 2014 03:30
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Thu, 27 February 2014 17:28
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Thu, 27 February 2014 21:09
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Fri, 28 February 2014 13:52
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Fri, 28 February 2014 14:08
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Fri, 28 February 2014 15:52
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Fri, 28 February 2014 16:03
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Thu, 27 February 2014 00:00
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Thu, 27 February 2014 03:39
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Thu, 27 February 2014 17:29
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Thu, 27 February 2014 21:14
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 23:18
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 26 February 2014 02:08
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Richard Damon on Wed, 26 February 2014 12:50
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 26 February 2014 13:44
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Richard Damon on Thu, 27 February 2014 04:49
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Thu, 27 February 2014 13:25
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Richard Damon on Sat, 01 March 2014 17:56
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Sat, 01 March 2014 19:22
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Richard Damon on Sun, 02 March 2014 19:28
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 02 March 2014 20:42
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Richard Damon on Sun, 02 March 2014 22:14
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 02 March 2014 22:48
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Tim Streater on Sun, 02 March 2014 23:05
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:08
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:29
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Tue, 25 February 2014 23:15
		Re: Operator precedence By: Richard Damon on Tue, 25 February 2014 03:41
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 04:59
		Re: Operator precedence By: Richard Damon on Sat, 01 March 2014 18:39
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Sat, 01 March 2014 19:29
		Re: Operator precedence By: Richard Damon on Sun, 02 March 2014 20:22
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 02 March 2014 20:49
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 18:15
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Sun, 23 February 2014 20:56
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Mon, 24 February 2014 13:28

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