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Re: Operator precedence [message #185082 is a reply to message #185032]

Tue, 25 February 2014 21:45

GS
Messages: 3
Registered: February 2014

Karma:

Junior Member

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars(at)web(dot)de> wrote:

> Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>
>> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars(at)web(dot)de> writes:
>>> Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> […] Expressions are built from operators, but is ',' an operator
>>>> in PHP? It appears in the operator precedence table but it isn't an
>>>> operator in an sense that would normally be understood by someone
>>>> familiar with these terms.
>>>
>>> ECMAScript has a “Comma Operator”, too.
>>
>> But my point was the PHP doesn't have one --
>
> But it does:
>
> for ($i = 0, $j = 42; $i < $j; ++$i);
> ^

The comma serves as a separator here, not an operator. It's just
separating items in a list in the same way you do with arguments in a
function call. I think the reason it's in the operator table is just to
clarify that expressions in a list don't need to be bracketed since all
real operators bind more tightly than "," (as you'd expect).

Formally, an operator is just a function which uses infix notation for
its arguments, ie. semantically a OP b = OP(a,b). In fact, some
languages let you define your own operators in exactly the same way as
you do functions. So things like , and ; are not operators (in PHP
anyway) since unlike stuff such as + or > they don't denote functions
which operate on their operands.

The only reason we have operators at all in programming languages is
because the infix notation is familiar and saves us from the LISP hell
of endlessly bracketing everything. Most people find a+b/c easier on
the eye than +(a,/(b,c)). The drawback of the infix notation is it
creates ambiguities that have to be resolved in the language definition
e.g. by assigning a precedence to every operator, or stipulating linear
evaluation, or requiring that every expression containing more than one
operator be bracketed.

This brings us back to what started this thread, namely that in order to
understand the meaning of a PHP expression you need a formal definition
of how expressions are evaluated, including precedence rules. The
existence of a "but..." in the operator precedence documentation subtley
reveals that the formal definition of a PHP expression is not what we
might have thought it to be, as has since been clarified by those
posters who have looked at the source code.

Looking again at the Language Reference page, "Expressions", I think my
original comment that it does not define what an expression is (for
Jerry's benefit I should say "what a PHP expression is"!) still stands.
It gives several examples but falls short of a formal definition which
would tell us whether or not we can use constructions like !$a && $a =
42.

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[Message index]

		Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Sun, 23 February 2014 17:03
		Re: Operator precedence By: GS on Sun, 23 February 2014 19:42
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Sun, 23 February 2014 20:23
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 23 February 2014 21:34
		Re: Operator precedence By: Richard Damon on Sun, 23 February 2014 23:36
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 24 February 2014 02:09
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Mon, 24 February 2014 04:49
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Mon, 24 February 2014 11:56
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Mon, 24 February 2014 16:38
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Mon, 24 February 2014 21:25
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Mon, 24 February 2014 23:38
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 00:07
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Tue, 25 February 2014 00:37
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 01:12
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Tue, 25 February 2014 02:29
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 18:41
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Tue, 25 February 2014 18:55
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 20:36
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Tue, 25 February 2014 03:08
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Tue, 25 February 2014 03:17
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Tue, 25 February 2014 04:45
		Re: Operator precedence By: GS on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:45
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 24 February 2014 12:00
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Mon, 24 February 2014 17:11
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 24 February 2014 19:27
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 00:25
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 01:40
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Mon, 24 February 2014 21:23
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 24 February 2014 21:45
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Tue, 25 February 2014 04:32
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 04:47
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Tue, 25 February 2014 16:56
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 18:59
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 19:19
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Tue, 25 February 2014 19:43
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:02
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:01
		Object constructors/destructors (was: Operator precedence) By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:19
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:32
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:55
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 22:01
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Adam Harvey on Tue, 25 February 2014 23:22
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 26 February 2014 02:10
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Wed, 26 February 2014 20:10
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 26 February 2014 21:01
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Wed, 26 February 2014 21:59
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 26 February 2014 22:19
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Wed, 26 February 2014 22:39
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Thu, 27 February 2014 03:30
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Thu, 27 February 2014 17:28
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Thu, 27 February 2014 21:09
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Fri, 28 February 2014 13:52
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Fri, 28 February 2014 14:08
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Fri, 28 February 2014 15:52
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Fri, 28 February 2014 16:03
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Thu, 27 February 2014 00:00
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Thu, 27 February 2014 03:39
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Thu, 27 February 2014 17:29
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Thu, 27 February 2014 21:14
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 23:18
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 26 February 2014 02:08
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Richard Damon on Wed, 26 February 2014 12:50
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 26 February 2014 13:44
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Richard Damon on Thu, 27 February 2014 04:49
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Thu, 27 February 2014 13:25
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Richard Damon on Sat, 01 March 2014 17:56
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Sat, 01 March 2014 19:22
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Richard Damon on Sun, 02 March 2014 19:28
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 02 March 2014 20:42
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Richard Damon on Sun, 02 March 2014 22:14
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 02 March 2014 22:48
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Tim Streater on Sun, 02 March 2014 23:05
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:08
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:29
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Tue, 25 February 2014 23:15
		Re: Operator precedence By: Richard Damon on Tue, 25 February 2014 03:41
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 04:59
		Re: Operator precedence By: Richard Damon on Sat, 01 March 2014 18:39
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Sat, 01 March 2014 19:29
		Re: Operator precedence By: Richard Damon on Sun, 02 March 2014 20:22
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 02 March 2014 20:49
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 18:15
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Sun, 23 February 2014 20:56
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Mon, 24 February 2014 13:28

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