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Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? [message #180310 is a reply to message #180299]

Mon, 04 February 2013 16:06

Jonathan N. Little
Messages: 12
Registered: February 2011

Karma:

Junior Member

crankypuss wrote:
> On 02/03/2013 12:00 PM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>> crankypuss wrote:
>>> On 02/03/2013 08:17 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> I don't think so. Since its original name was "Personal Home Page
>>>> Tools"
>>>> for scripts to facilitate created personal webpages on a server speaks
>>>> to its origins. How an application interacts in with the user from a
>>>> webserver is very different from that of a desktop application.
>>>
>>> It's okay if we disagree on this, you're allowed to be incorrect. <G>
>>
>> Not sure even if a smile can change history though.
>>
>>>
>>> As for how users interact with applications, if you think it's different
>>> on the web vs on the desktop, I would claim that you haven't finished
>>> generalizing your view of it. In either case the application presents
>>> something, the user responds, rinse-and-repeat. The main difference
>>> between a web-app and a desktop-app is the level of precision provided
>>> by the interface and the amount of latency. I've built web-apps that
>>> run equally well on the desktop. If you aren't aware of it, there is
>>> (or, was) a guy in the Windows world who sells a shareware product to
>>> facilitate writing desktop applications in PHP.
>>
>> But how it "runs" is different. A desktop app starts and has a message
>> loop that checks for user interaction. Responds and continues until
>> either program, user, or system terminates the processes. With the web
>> the php script receives its input via the web server, script runs and
>> does its stuff, creates the web page and terminates.
>>
>
> I guess you never worked much with state-driven applications, not
> everyone has. What we think of as a "desktop app" just sits there with
> its state-data in memory, and a "web app" reloads its state-data when
> another request comes in from the same user. Once the state data is
> re-established the internal processing is basically the same except for
> what subroutines are used to draw the "screen". In fact a "desktop app"
> doesn't keep its state-data in memory except conceptually unless the
> system is so lightly loaded that there's no thread-switching or swapping
> going on. Conceptually it generalizes to pretty much the same thing in
> either case.
>
> The "message loop" you speak of really isn't any different between a
> web-app and a desktop-app. For a desktop-app it looks like this,

Well sort of, where the web app has a web server in between and the
desktop has the OS,

>
> 1. application is entered on initiation
> 2. application presents initial display
> 4. application waits for input and is swapped out
> 5. user does something to cause an interrupt
> 6. application gets rescheduled as ready-to-run, swapped in
> 7. application scratches head, presents output
> 8. application goes back to (4) and gets "swapped out" again
>
> For a web-app it looks like this,
>
> 1. server starts up and eventually reaches idle state
> 2. a message comes in (analogous to 5 above)
> 3. application's state data gets reloaded as it's "swapped in"
> 4. application scratches head, presents output
> 5. application gets swapped out (state saved)
>

However with the desktop app it keeps running with a pid to the
instance, the web app does not. To keep continuity with a web app you
need to employ session mechanism. It need some sort of a login and
logout or it gets quite complicated with DBs and files. A simple example:

Application updated a simple file from user:

Desktop
1. App launches get pid
2. Locks file.
3. Reads file.
4. Displays file.
5. Waits for user input.
6. Writes updated file.
7. Removes lock
8. Program exits and pid is destroyed

Web:
1. Session created with user login
2) Web server calls script
locks file*
reads it
displays it
script ends
3) Web server waits for next request.
check session if same user goto 4 else 2
4) Get user edits
write file
remove lock*
script ends
5) User logout to remove session

*With a web app you would not lock the file from step 2-4 because if the
user left (close the browser, whatever) the session does not
automatically get destroyed the the desktop pid to run a cleanup to
unlock the file and such. You can have a session expire to auto logout
and such but it is not the same at all. With a desktop app it is real
easy to to insure only one instance, not so nor often desirable for web.

> It's pretty much the same thing, except that some websites don't do
> squat about saving state-data for an individual user. Some use PHP
> "session" stuff to do that, where a session identifier is a token coming
> in on each http request that allows that user's state-data to be
> reloaded for the request.

To emulate what happens in the desktop environment on the web is not so
easy.

> The loop is basically the same except that its "top" gets rolled around
> to the middle and given a different name. For a desktop-app the "top"
> is the guy hitting the enter key or clicking the mouse or whatever,
> that's the top of the "message loop". For a web-app the browser
> recognizes a link-click and sends an http request. It's the same thing
> unless you get fixated on the details to the point where you can't see
> the forest. Look an X Windows application in enough detail and you'll
> see the same basic process with a different protocol used between the
> client and the server. Steak or hamburger, it's all beef.
>

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

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[Message index]

		anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Sat, 02 February 2013 20:27
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: DanS on Sat, 02 February 2013 20:57
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Sun, 03 February 2013 10:45
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: DanS on Sun, 03 February 2013 12:00
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Jonathan N. Little on Sat, 02 February 2013 21:27
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Sun, 03 February 2013 10:49
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: The Natural Philosoph on Sun, 03 February 2013 11:00
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Jonathan N. Little on Sun, 03 February 2013 15:17
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Sun, 03 February 2013 18:40
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Jonathan N. Little on Sun, 03 February 2013 19:00
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Richard Yates on Sun, 03 February 2013 21:56
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Martin on Mon, 04 February 2013 00:53
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: The Natural Philosoph on Mon, 04 February 2013 02:40
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Tim Streater on Mon, 04 February 2013 09:14
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Mon, 04 February 2013 09:32
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Jonathan N. Little on Mon, 04 February 2013 16:06
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Mon, 04 February 2013 16:15
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: The Natural Philosoph on Mon, 04 February 2013 16:24
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Jonathan N. Little on Mon, 04 February 2013 16:35
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Tue, 05 February 2013 09:22
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: The Natural Philosoph on Tue, 05 February 2013 12:16
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Tue, 05 February 2013 18:49
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: The Natural Philosoph on Tue, 05 February 2013 21:22
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: J G Miller on Mon, 04 February 2013 16:38
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: M. Strobel on Mon, 04 February 2013 16:41
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: The Natural Philosoph on Mon, 04 February 2013 16:58
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Tue, 05 February 2013 09:21
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: The Natural Philosoph on Tue, 05 February 2013 12:15
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Tue, 05 February 2013 18:52
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: The Natural Philosoph on Tue, 05 February 2013 21:23
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Jasen Betts on Tue, 05 February 2013 06:00
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Arno Welzel on Tue, 05 February 2013 12:49
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 05 February 2013 13:22
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Cybe R. Wizard on Tue, 05 February 2013 14:50
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Arno Welzel on Mon, 04 February 2013 07:40
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Mon, 04 February 2013 09:49
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Robert Heller on Sat, 02 February 2013 21:43
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Sun, 03 February 2013 10:57
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Keith D. Lee on Sat, 02 February 2013 22:20
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Sun, 03 February 2013 11:13
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Jasen Betts on Mon, 04 February 2013 12:23
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Mon, 04 February 2013 15:57
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Arno Welzel on Tue, 05 February 2013 13:04
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Arno Welzel on Tue, 05 February 2013 12:59
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: M. Strobel on Sun, 03 February 2013 09:58
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Sun, 03 February 2013 11:20
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: J.O. Aho on Sun, 03 February 2013 11:44
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: The Natural Philosoph on Sun, 03 February 2013 11:50
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: J.O. Aho on Sun, 03 February 2013 12:47
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: The Natural Philosoph on Sun, 03 February 2013 13:23
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Jasen Betts on Mon, 04 February 2013 11:32
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Sun, 03 February 2013 18:43
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: J G Miller on Sun, 03 February 2013 13:08
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: M. Strobel on Sun, 03 February 2013 13:49
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: John Hasler on Sun, 03 February 2013 14:16
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Richard Kettlewell on Sun, 03 February 2013 15:28
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: John Hasler on Sun, 03 February 2013 15:39
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: M. Strobel on Sun, 03 February 2013 16:50
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: John Hasler on Sun, 03 February 2013 17:24
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: J G Miller on Sun, 03 February 2013 19:25
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Richard Kettlewell on Sun, 03 February 2013 20:25
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: J G Miller on Sun, 03 February 2013 21:47
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: John Hasler on Sun, 03 February 2013 22:32
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: The Natural Philosoph on Sun, 03 February 2013 22:59
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: J G Miller on Mon, 04 February 2013 00:21
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Jasen Betts on Mon, 04 February 2013 11:46
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Richard Kettlewell on Sun, 03 February 2013 23:13
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: M. Strobel on Mon, 04 February 2013 16:21
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: The Natural Philosoph on Mon, 04 February 2013 16:28
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: John Hasler on Sun, 03 February 2013 20:26
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Jasen Betts on Mon, 04 February 2013 11:37
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Tim Streater on Sun, 03 February 2013 13:17
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Arno Welzel on Mon, 04 February 2013 07:38
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Tim Streater on Mon, 04 February 2013 09:04
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Arno Welzel on Mon, 04 February 2013 09:29
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Tim Streater on Mon, 04 February 2013 09:34
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Mon, 04 February 2013 10:06
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Mon, 04 February 2013 10:01
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Mon, 04 February 2013 16:08
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: M. Strobel on Mon, 04 February 2013 16:34
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: J G Miller on Mon, 04 February 2013 16:44
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Tue, 05 February 2013 09:36
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Michael Vilain on Tue, 05 February 2013 09:49
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: J G Miller on Tue, 05 February 2013 15:03
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Tue, 05 February 2013 19:07
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: J G Miller on Tue, 05 February 2013 20:22
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Jasen Betts on Tue, 05 February 2013 22:27
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: J G Miller on Wed, 06 February 2013 00:06
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Wed, 06 February 2013 11:32
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Richard Kettlewell on Wed, 06 February 2013 11:50
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Wed, 06 February 2013 11:22
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: J G Miller on Wed, 06 February 2013 15:37
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Jasen Betts on Tue, 05 February 2013 22:13
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Richard Kettlewell on Tue, 05 February 2013 23:38
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Tue, 05 February 2013 09:26
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Tim Streater on Tue, 05 February 2013 10:31
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Arno Welzel on Tue, 05 February 2013 12:41
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Tim Streater on Tue, 05 February 2013 12:56
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Arno Welzel on Tue, 05 February 2013 13:08
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Tue, 05 February 2013 19:24
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: J G Miller on Tue, 05 February 2013 20:14
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Aragorn on Wed, 06 February 2013 05:27
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: DanS on Thu, 07 February 2013 01:48
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Cybe R. Wizard on Thu, 07 February 2013 04:44
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: GooseMan on Thu, 07 February 2013 05:38
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Arno Welzel on Thu, 07 February 2013 14:13
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: DanS on Sun, 10 February 2013 14:09
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Tue, 05 February 2013 19:10
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Jasen Betts on Tue, 05 February 2013 21:51
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: The Natural Philosoph on Tue, 05 February 2013 22:32
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Meeh on Tue, 05 February 2013 16:51
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Mon, 04 February 2013 09:55
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Arno Welzel on Tue, 05 February 2013 12:42
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: crankypuss on Tue, 05 February 2013 19:28
		Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? By: Arno Welzel on Sat, 09 February 2013 19:58

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