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Re: out of sheer curiosity... [message #177438 is a reply to message #177436] Thu, 29 March 2012 17:09 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
Messages: 993
Registered: September 2010
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Erwin Moller wrote:
> On 3/29/2012 3:39 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 3/29/2012 8:33 AM, Erwin Moller wrote:
>>> On 3/29/2012 12:46 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>>> Its just another way of doing things and I let my understanding of the
>>>> problem guide me, not a set of arbitrary rules.
>>>
>>> As it should!
>>>
>>> But what 'rules' are you referring to?
>>>
>>> PHP's OO is pretty straightforward.
>>> I think they did a decent job implementing OO.(php 5 that is)
>>>
>>> Creating smart classes is up to the programmer.
>>> I am not aware of any extra 'rules'.
>>>
>>> Are you maybe referring to all kinds of design patterns scattered around
>>> the web?
>>> (In which case I tend to agree, because implementing other people's
>>> solutions can take the fun out of programming. But reading them never
>>> hurts. And when you agree to a certain approach you can even decide to
>>> follow it yourself. It is all up to you, the programmer.)
>>>
>>
>> Any rules TNP doesn't bother to understand are "arbitrary" in his mind.
>> He doesn't even like having to follow PHP syntax rules - as he has also
>> said in the past.
>>
>> But I disagree that PHP 5's implementation of OO is decent. I think it's
>> half-assed at best. Truly written by people who have no understanding of
>> OO. But then that can be said of a lot of PHP.
>>
>
> Jerry,
>
> What are your main objections to the PHP5's OO approach?
>
> For myself: I must say I love its simplicity.
> (Simplicity is a Good Thing in my opinion.)
>
>
>
> <snip>
>
>>> But even then, OO often won't hurt too much either.
>>> You can simply use your procedural logic in OO too.
>>> I worked like that in Java when I started learning the language, until I
>>> discovered how idiotic I was. All part of the learning curve. :-)
>>>
>>
>> I agree - I've seen some things which work better using a procedural
>> approach. But I've also found the more complicated something gets, the
>> more appropriate an OO approach becomes.
>>
>
> Exactly. :-)
>
> <snip>
>
>>>>
>>>> (and almost all of the problems to which PHP is the natural language of
>>>> choice do not benefit from OOP. If a web site is the application each
>>>> php 'page' is an object in its own right..anyway.
>>>
>>> True for a simple plain webpage, but when you have something more
>>> complex OO can certainly help.
>>> Most (all?) modern MVC software are at least partly OO, simply because
>>> it makes things easier to organize.
>>>
>>
>> No, a page is not an object. A page is closer to a transactional
>> application. For instance, the page cannot be reused in another page
>> without modifications. Objects can.
>>
>
> No, of course a page is not an object in the OO meaning.
> I was referring to using OO to help building the page.
>
It is an object in that its self contained .. and doesn't extend into
other pages. Its data is self contained.


> I wonder: one might defend that storing serialized objects in a session
> is object persistence, and that a page is hence also part of it because
> it is coupled via sess_id to that object.
> Nah.. too farfetched.
> (And I never store objects in a session anymore: not worth the trouble
> in my opinion.)
>

No. Its simpler to generate your own cookie, use that to id the
transaction and store everything else elsewhere. Typically a database.


> <snip>
>
>>
>> I can code Intel processors - I started back in '82 when the typical PC
>> had 64K or 128K of RAM (and slow). We needed to do some stuff in 808x
>> assembler. I still do a little as a hobby (mainly to keep up with it),
>> but I don't go down to the OS level.
>>
>
> Nice!
> And I feel like a relic now with my 6502 hands-on experience. ;-)
>
I've coded 8080, z80, 8088, 8086 and 6809.. after that it was mostly
done in C...

C is just qa faster way to write quality assembler.

Once you step into the arena of garbage collection, invisible memory
manipulation and start hiding the actual realities of the machine from
the language you end up with the possibility of really bad bloated code
and seriously crap performance.

I.e. basically what the modern user application is characterised by.



> Regards,
> Erwin Moller
>


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

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