| Re: Anyone have experience with any php debuggers? [message #180150 is a reply to message #180149] |
Tue, 15 January 2013 15:05   |
The Natural Philosoph
Messages: 993
Registered: September 2010
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On 15/01/13 14:48, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Am 15.01.2013 14:28, schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>
>> On 15/01/13 10:36, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>> Am 04.01.2013 19:13, schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
> [...]
>>>> I was writing code long before we HAD IDEs. And once you had blown the
>>>> EAROM you had to guess at why it didn't work. Because we didn't have
>>>> enough ICES to go round.
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> The had the first IDEs including source level debuggers in the late
>>> 1980s long before Windows or Linux became popular as they are today (and
>>> when i started software development, Windows 3.1 didn't even exist) -
>>> and yes, i really liked the opportunity to have "projects" and
>>> debugging. Just because it is technically possible to do something
>>> without a special tool it does not mean that using better tools is not
>>> wise.
>>>
>>> BTW: The GNU Debugger was created in 1986.
>>>
>>>> BECAUSE we were professionals we learnt to write code in such a way
>>>> that
>>>> the chances of a bug were very very low.
>>>>
>>>> Its hackers who use IDES to throw code together, and then spend the
>>>> next
>>>> day bodging it until it works, simply because they have the tools that
>>>> make debugging easier than writing proper code in the first place.
>>>
>>> I doubt that you ever did projects with thousands line of code from
>>> scratch and more than one person working on the same project this way.
>>>
>>>
>> I can assure you I did.
> [...]
>> I may these days hack with less comments, but if my code does NOT work I
>> go back to that style of comment. At least it reminds me weeks later
>> what the code is SUPPOSED to do, even if it doesn't.
>
> Using comments is still wise - even today with the most fancy IDE.
>
>> I've found aids good for syntax bugs, but not for logical bugs.
>>
>> A proper compiler and proper language that requires explicit
>> declarations of variables takes care of most of the syntax.
>>
>> The logic? that you have to figure out the hard way.
>
> Yep - and if you use a compiler you sometimes have to deal with
> "optimizations" too :-/
>
At least these days MOST of the common optimization errors have been
solved.
When I satrted in C on microp[reossors it was are to find a compiler
that COULD understand teh entire language, and mots produyced very ugly
code indeed.
My source of that period is liittered with
/* I know that any sane person wouldn't do it this way: however the
compiler is not a sane person. It's a stupid program, and this is the
only way to get it to work: feel free to spend a week improving on my
efforts */
Even then we often had to look at the assembler produced to see what
kind of spaghtetti it was turning out.
It was a lot later on that I did the same with a modern gnu C compiler
and thought 'shit that's better code than my hand written assembler: Its
really got that down pat'
>> But at least if the comment sasy 'check dumledore has been initialised
>> by Hogwarts' and the code says otherwise, you have a hint...
>>
>> The trouble is PHP allows lazy coding. Type $dumbledore and its not
>> clear whether the variable is being assigned, set, or both. Slack typing
>> means that you need === as well as == and = ...
>>
>> It truly is a hackers language.
>
> Well - this is not so surprising, since PHP was originally not created
> to be a programming language but nothing more as a toolkit to create
> HTML documents.
Which it is it has to be said, pretty good at.
If PHP would ever invent stricter rules, most existing
> code would not work any longer - then most people would start to think
> about alternatives to PHP anyway. So PHP has to keep this "lazy" nature
> as long it exists :-/
>
I am cool with that as long as it isn't dressed up to be more than it is.
If I end up with more than three pages of PHP I tend to think it's time
to pick another language.
I've recently done almost similar things in C as PHP and frankly, its
scarcely different in coding time once the makefile is set up.
And C lends itself nicely to modularity. Without the run time overhead
of included() files.
>
--
Ineptocracy
(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
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